I need help with choruses.

[ratthedd]

It seems every song I write lately I get a decent cadence going for the verse and I can come up with enough verses to make a song, but none of the songs have a chorus.

 

What's a good way of adding a chorus? Swap the chordal progression from the verse? Use the same chordal progression and change the melody? Use the bridge chords?

 

What about lyrics for the chorus? What do you use? Do I take the title and keep repeating it?

 

I recognize that it depends on the song, of course, but what other methods are there?

[Deef]

Who said you need a chorus?

 

Does it sound like there's something missing from the song?

 

Well, just put in what's missing.

 

Sorry to be glib, but the question is so general and there are thousands of examples of choruses out there. It's commonly the musical and lyrical thematic hook, but if you've already poured the hooks into the verses, I say let it be.

 

Hmm... Let It Be...

 

Deef

[seahorse]

Take one of your verses and make it the chorus. To make the chorus sound different; just pretend you're writing a different song.

[pjkaiser]

Any of the methods you mentioned can work. there's really no

right or wrong rules.

 

But the key thing I feel really matters is a sense of having made a statement when the chorus is over. I usually feel that the 1st verse "sets up" the 1st chorus, and after the 1st chorus I have a general sense of where the writer is going.

 

Generally the chorus is the melodic and lyrical highpoint of the song. I usually try to make it either the coolest melody or the coolest lyrics in the song (or ideally both), that's why it's worth repeating so many times! If that means using the verse progession, cool, if that means making what you thought was a verse into a chorus cool. whatever it takes....

 

P

[elsongs]

 

Originally posted by Deef Who said you need a chorus?

 

 

Most songs need a chorus, but if you have the right conditions, you don't need one.

Best example is "Genius of Love" by the Tom Tom Club. Just verses, no chorus, and the title is in the second last line of the song.

[Cldplytkmn]

there are ALOT of examples of songs without choruses... its called folk... and they use refrains

[blue2blue]

Heh.

 

Dictionary.com (that great arbiter of all aguments musical) says:

Music. A composition usually in four or more parts written for a large number of singers. A refrain in which others, such as audience members, join a soloist in a song. A line or group of lines repeated at intervals in a song. A solo section based on the main melody of a popular song and played by a member of the group. A body of singers who perform choral compositions, usually having more than one singer for each part. A body of vocalists and dancers who support the soloists and leading performers in operas, musical comedies, and revues.

 

So, refrain is probably a bit more precise. (The first time a jazzer told me to 'take this chorus' I layed out through the whole 'verse' part to an odd set of looks and some gesturing from him and then, of course, I came in promptly at the refrain. Afterward, he patiently explained that a 'chorus' in jazz is a verse-refrain combo... The problem with music is words. )

[blue2blue]

I think it's well observed that there are no real rules to writing a good refrain, just like there are no real rules to writing verses, bridges, intros, outros, etc.

 

But there are some tricks that can help give you direction when you're stumped for a refrain/chorus.

 

I often think of a typical refrain as being a modulation within the same key. The tonal center shifts toward that note, but the scale remains more or less the same. (Or not. But that's another example.) And the melody probably mirrors/rhymes the verse melody in some way, or perhaps inverts it somehow.

 

So, say you have a song in G, that starts on G. Something very basic like G, C, D, G. [1, 4, 5, 1] For a (real predictable but perhaps nonetheless satisfying) refrain, I might move the starting chord to the key's four chord, C. I move up to and then drop 'down' and come back to G, thusly: C, D, Em, G. [4, 5, 6m, 1]

 

Alternately, I might start on the D, perhaps using an Em next, or one of the other chords generally associated with the key of G. (You know, G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, F#dm, and back to G. [1, 2m, 3m, 4, 5, 6m, 7dim] ) The possiblities are manifold. (As in a lot, rather than a part on your car.)

 

And, of course, you might break out of the key entirely, using a key closely synonymous with the original like C (in the case of G) or jumping to something with a real contrast. And of course, it's not at all uncommon for a section of a song to go through a couple of key shifts as one sets up the next and finally leads back to the original key for resolution. (Or not. No rules. But some handy signposts along the way.)

[difference84]

I've noticed that after a few years of songwriting, I was doing it all wrong. I was once in that position that you are in; No chorus in sight but plenty of verses. I still have that problem sometimes. I saw an interview with Adam Jones of Tool, and he said that he sits on his couch at home and replays the song over and over again until it finally comes to him.

 

My best advice for you is not to base the chorus off some cool chord progression (assuming you play guitar). Play your verse and sing along to it, get into the song and sing loud. Stop playing the verse but let your mind lead you into the chorus. That's what works best for me. Don't let the chords make the song for you.

 

Another side note: The basic formula for a song is Verse/Chorus/Verse/Chorus/Bridge. Don't try to fulfill the expectations of some overused formula. Just let the song work itself out.

 

Find your style, and embrace it.

[BryanMichael]

There are many different song formats, even "standard formats" like the refrain mentioned above or a classic ballad structure with the AAAAA type of thing going on. However, if you are looking for a chorus, consider what the song is about. Do you have a title? Let the chorus expand on the title, let the verses "prove" the title.

It's like writing an essay with theme and main idea...

 

 

B

[kurdy]

Sometimes what works, if you can help it, is to write the chorus first. Gets it out of the way--then you can concentrate on writing the verses to lead up to it.

[difference84]

For some reason when you want to write a song, then you go grab your guitar...sit at your piano, you can't write the song. When the mood comes to you or you feel inspired, that is the best time to go pound out the chorus. Let the chorus come to you. Don't go out searching for it, that is when you get writers block. When I'm at work or in class, I'll sing my songs in my head over and over again. If I remember the song, I'll grab my guitar as soon as I get home and figure the song out. That is also how I get my guitar riffs. I've also noticed that the setting has a lot to do with the feeling of the song. I like to go to the beach at night with my acoustic and sit on the sand and write my songs. It's so peaceful and it lets me have my peace of mind.

[IommiPage]

I really struggle when it comes to choruses too. One way I've found to get round it is simply have a really strong vocal melody during the verses, that can act as a memorable hook. That way you dont really need a chorus.

[difference84]

When I write music (now) I have weeded out choruses completely by adding many melodic parts, builds and interludes. I have strayed away from the mainstream style as it gets boring very fast.

[blue2blue]

Originally posted by kurdy Sometimes what works, if you can help it, is to write the chorus first. Gets it out of the way--then you can concentrate on writing the verses to lead up to it.

 

I let the catchiness/caloric value of the chords guide them to their proper purpose.

 

If they're insufferably catchy -- I figure folks will burn out on them in the verse (with the assumption that the verse will be longer than the chorus, which is, admittedly, not always so), so I slap them in the chorus/refrain.

 

And then if I start out with a catchy chorus, a lot of times I'll make my verse a little on the subdued side. But, you know, as others pointed out, there's really no rules.

 

And, as we can all see from looking at many or most writers out there, some of the cool little tricks we get into the habit of can end up being traps.

 

There's a band that will go nameless that I really like (and they are probably legion, actually)... or, I should say, I really like in small doses. Even an album can be too much.

 

Their melodies are often beautiful and almost eerily ingratiating, the arrangements a cool chamber ensemble backup that offsets the often quite cynical lyrics.

 

For 5 or 6 songs in a row, these guys are great. But listen to an album or two by them and you start realizing they reuse the same melodic movements and songwriting tricks over and over. (Hey, if I could come up with some of that stuff, I might, too!)

 

Anyhow, analyzing songwriting can be a fascinating pastime -- unfortunately, sometimes it can keep you from writing songs...

 

[corngoodness]

The chorus should be the yelled out part. Like the words explain how she broke your heart then you get to the chorus and its all like "Die Bitch Die" over and over.

 

Hey ratthedd, I lived in Kalamazoo for 16 years. Kinda cool place.

[corngoodness]

Originally posted by blue2blue I let the catchiness/caloric value of the chords guide them to their proper purpose. If they're insufferably catchy -- I figure folks will burn out on them in the verse (with the assumption that the verse will be longer than the chorus, which is, admittedly, not always so), so I slap them in the chorus/refrain. And then if I start out with a catchy chorus, a lot of times I'll make my verse a little on the subdued side. But, you know, as others pointed out, there's really no rules. And, as we can all see from looking at many or most writers out there, some of the cool little tricks we get into the habit of can end up being traps. There's a band that will go nameless that I really like (and they are probably legion, actually)... or, I should say, I really like in small doses. Even an album can be too much. Their melodies are often beautiful and almost eerily ingratiating, the arrangements a cool chamber ensemble backup that offsets the often quite cynical lyrics. For 5 or 6 songs in a row, these guys are great. But listen to an album or two by them and you start realizing they reuse the same melodic movements and songwriting tricks over and over. (Hey, if I could come up with some of that stuff, I might, too!) Anyhow, analyzing songwriting can be a fascinating pastime -- unfortunately, sometimes it can keep you from writing songs...

 

Radiohead or Muse!

[MikeLewisMusic]

People that have trouble finding the chorus typically fall into one of two categories--

 

1.) Poet--Often poetry is composed only of verse after verse. Try looking at your song from a music perspective instead of lyrically. Often a hook and chorus/refrain will jump out musically, then you'll struggle to come up with lyrics. Struggle makes it worthwhile...

 

2.) Not conventional--Songs don't necesarily need a chorus/refrain. This is primarily a commercial consideration that follows the same technique in writing jingles and advertisements--You want to repeat the important stuff 4 or 5 times to make the sale. If you aren't trying to sell something, you may not need the chorus.