June Challenge - Ravenhurst Road

[oldgitplayer]

I thought it was time to face my own challenge and write something about a place.

I anticipated writing something bright, interesting etc., but instead started writing about my early years at primary school in England in the 50's.

Maybe I need to get it off my chest - I don't know. This is what came out in the first tumble of words, but I think it might be too dark for a song.

Whotchathink? Develop it or start with a more agreeable subject?

 

Ravenhurst Road

 

The classrooms dark and catholic

Stacked with silent load

Facts were taught us with the stick

In Ravenhurst Road

 

The Fathers and the Brothers

With hoary Irish names

Thought that boys were born in sin

So plied their Jesus game

 

With Holy Ghost and Mary

Standing in the line

We mumbled meaning with their words

And did our childhood time.

 

[nat whilk II]

Too dark for a song?? Nah...hardly possible.

 

I'm not sure "games" are "plied" -

I'm thinking "mumbled meaning with their words" needs a rework...just suggestions a la

 

their words we mumbled, their meaning lost

in fens of endless childhood time

or

they moved our mouths we said their words

or "we moved our mouths, their words mumbling" (a bit of the ol Anglo-Saxon feel, hey what?)

or

mumbling rote to stoney floors

or

"Speak now", we spoke, a mumbling mock

 

 

This type of thing is perfect for as much alliteration as you can conjure - the old Anglo-Saxon thing.

 

Seems to me the danger with songs that work with topics that have already been heavily worked and stereotyped, is that it's easy to co-opt the ready-to-hand feelings people already have about the topic, and not create your own particular mood and meaning. You'll need some slightly off-the-beaten-path observation or metaphor to make this your own story and not just yet another miserable Catholic school memory which seem so plentiful in the media and among people from our age demographic.

 

And if it wasn't all dark, you might show a bit of both sides, without losing the empathy.

 

nat whilk ii

 

 

 

 

[rickidoo]

Git,

 

Do you see this as a go for the throat piece, or a more laugh about it now piece, or something else?

 

I am reminded of a Jethro Tull song, not quite about school, but not too far away from this theme:

 

 

 

 

I love how Ian Anderson came up with some quips, yet still managed some direct-through-the-heart hits.

 

Rick

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LCK]

Too dark for a song?? Nah...hardly possible.

 

I'm not sure "games" are "plied" -

 

I think it works just fine. Words can sometimes be used in new ways that suggest more than the usual meaning. In a roundabout way I think it was the kids who were being plied. The teachers/priests were using ideological games to keep the children in line. So I think that works quite well.

 

In fact the whole thing seems pretty much first rate so far (maybe a little rhyme-ey, but that would depend on how the tune carries the words and vice versa).

[Lee Knight]

I read this last night as I was falling asleep and thought it was fantastic. I still do, and certainly not too dark. Personally, I like the cadence of it a lot and the rhyme scheme seems to really work well. My only question was the verse with 'Jesus game'. I love it but would really like to see that line end with the word Jesus. The word 'plied' along with 'Jesus' speaks heaps and heaps. Regardless of any religious persuasion the idea that someone is playing someone like that is pretty potent and says a lot on its own. Rhymes for Jesus are scarce. :-) but you have the whole world of blank-us open to you. Or faithless or mindless or guiltless, etc. Nat makes some pretty astute points also. I think these stanzas as verses work very, very well. Maybe it's time to stretch the old hook muscle. How can you sum this up and make it a clear concise simple idea with very few words? I think it is chorus time. Taking Nat's cue maybe put some of your very real reflections into that simple chorus. Not, what is expected of a dark song like this, but maybe, how do I feel now. Who are you because of this? In spite of this? Maybe dig a little deeper into your current feelings on this. Phil, I think this is really, really very good work. And if you do go in the chorus direction I would suggest leaving the current cadence and rhyme scheme alone. Go somewhere different, simpler, and more direct. Just ideas to help you to do that thing that you do, my friend. Or not. It seems like you have a pretty good direction going here.

[LCK]

The word 'plied' along with 'Jesus' speaks heaps and heaps. Regardless of any religious persuasion the idea that someone is playing someone like that is pretty potent and says a lot on its own.

 

Rhymes for Jesus are scarce. :-) but you have the whole world of blank-us open to you. Or faithless or mindless or guiltless, etc.

 

Taking Nat's cue maybe put some of your very real reflections into that simple chorus. Not, what is expected of a dark song like this, but maybe, how do I feel now. Who are you because of this? In spite of this? Maybe dig a little deeper into your current feelings on this.

 

Phil, I think this is really, really very good work. And if you do go in the chorus direction I would suggest leaving the current cadence and rhyme scheme alone. Go somewhere different, simpler, and more direct. Just ideas to help you to do that thing that you do, my friend.

 

These are great suggestions. Definitely worth thinking about.

[oldgitplayer]

Thanks guys - you have given me the right kind of encouragement, so I'll keep going and finish the song.

It's an example of 'Write what you know', because I didn't need to use my imagination. Hence the song was written exactly as you see it - no changes.

 

I agree Lee K that it is now time for a chorus, and I agree it needs to step back from the close reality and provide an overview in some hooky way. I'm inclined to leave the Jesus line for the moment because it works well enough. Maybe it could be better, but I tend to put most craft into the title, chorus and bridge (if there is one). I don't mind if much of the verse material is implied rather than clearly stated.

If I messed with lines to end on Jesus they might come out something like this:

 

The Fathers and the Brothers

Were not there to please us

Thought that boys were born in sin

So plied us with their Jesus

 

^^^ Naaah

 

Thanks LCK for reinforcing the writing method of using words in different ways so that they convey a meaning in their own new way. When I was 18, I read 'Under Milkwood' for the first time and it opened my eyes to an inventive use of language that I tend to use even in everyday conversation now.

 

Rick - 'Wind Up' is one of those songs that is meaningful to me. I was 24 when the album was released in 1971, so high school was already 6 years distant. I identified strongly with Anderson's lyric - he really nailed it. Those truly were the attitudes that were pushed on us at school. Ian Anderson and I are the same age. So that's Ian's song. I still need to find my way into what my song will be, but it won't be for a laugh. I think that deep down I still carry some pain from those early years.

 

Nat - you've given me a lot to think about. I'll think about what you have suggested with some of the lines. Whether I can make them better or not remains to be seen.

I do value your commentary however - I think the chorus (and bridge) are the key to bringing this song together. A good metaphor or overview can go a long way. Or as Lee K suggests - maybe look back over my shoulder to all this years ago and maybe how I have travelled since.

 

Thanks everybody - I'll get back to it now………...

 

BTW - none of the really obscene stuff we read about happened - I can be thankful for that.

[Oswlek]

Very nice. "Plied their Jesus game" initially felt like it was a departure from the prior voicing, but Lee's breakdown of it makes a lot of sense. I have nothing other than interest in where this goes.

 

Leek, it seems like you deleted it, but I got a chuckle out of your comments on my lyrics. Perhaps not coincidentally, I've become known in some circles over on MM as the guy whose lyrics blow in print but are surprisingly effective when heard. Surprisingly relative to "that should suck!" of course.

[oldgitplayer]

Here's an update with some more material.

The chorus I've written doesn't have a strong enough idea behind it yet, so I'm leaving that off for now.

 

Ravenhurst Road

 

V1

Turn off the village high street

Down Ravenhurst Road

 

Past bright and friendly houses

Kept with love and care

To a small Victorian red brick school

No-one loved the children there

The classrooms dark and catholic

Stacked with silent load

Facts were taught us with the stick

In Ravenhurst Road

 

Chorus

 

V2

The Fathers and the Brothers

With hoary Irish names

Thought that boys were born in sin

So plied their Jesus game

With Holy Ghost and Mary

Standing in the line

We mumbled meaning with their words

And served our childhood time.

 

Bridge

Now the school has gone

Its ghost haunts me no more

The scars that build our character

Sometimes opens doors

 

Chorus

 

[LCK]

Nice. There's a definite musical flow to these words.

 

But I'm assuming this:

 

V1

Turn off the village high street

Down Ravenhurst Road

 

Past bright and friendly houses

Kept with love and care

To a small Victorian red brick school

No-one loved the children there

The classrooms dark and catholic

Stacked with silent load

Facts were taught us with the stick

In Ravenhurst Road

 

...is really this...

 

Intro.

Turn off the village high street

Down Ravenhurst Road

 

V1

Past bright and friendly houses

Kept with love and care

To a small Victorian red brick school

No-one loved the children there

The classrooms dark and catholic

Stacked with silent load

Facts were taught us with the stick

In Ravenhurst Road

 

 

At any rate, very good so far.

[oldgitplayer]

^^^ You are correct Sir - that is my intention.

[oldgitplayer]

Here's the entire song as a 1st Draft.

I expect to change stuff once I get some music moving, but any comments on how it all hangs together in its current structure, would be much appreciated.

 

I might still want to change the 'seas of possibility' and 'swam the waters' metaphor once the song begins to evolve.

 

Ravenhurst Road

 

Intro

Turn off the village high street

Down Ravenhurst Road

 

V1

Past bright and friendly houses

Kept with love and care

To a small Victorian red brick school

No-one loved the children there

The classrooms dark and catholic

Stacked with silent load

Facts were taught us with the stick

In Ravenhurst Road

 

Chorus

Leaning on the desktop

Dreaming in the class

A boy holds on to what he’s got

And grows up fairly fast

In seas of possibility

He finds his new abode

And this boy swam the waters

In Ravenhurst Road

 

V2

The Fathers and the Brothers

With hoary Irish names

Thought that boys were born in sin

So plied their Jesus game

With Holy Ghost and Mary

Standing in the line

We mumbled meaning with their words

And served our childhood time.

 

Bridge

Now the school has gone

Its ghost haunts me no more

The scars that build our character

Sometime open doors

 

Chorus

Leaning on the desktop

Dreaming in the class

A boy holds on to what he’s got

And grows up fairly fast

In seas of possibility

He finds his new abode

And this boy swam the waters

In Ravenhurst Road

 

[LCK]

Sterling. Very nice work.

[nat whilk II]

Is an audio version in the works?

 

nat whilk ii

[oldgitplayer]

Sterling. Very nice work.

Thank you kindly

[oldgitplayer]

Is an audio version in the works?

 

nat whilk ii

Ha - I haven't even picked up an instrument on this one yet.

In terms of Lee K's recent post about 80 / 20 - it would apply to me in that the past 3 years that I have seriously been attempting to develop some songwriting skills, I have probably arrived at being 80% lyricist and 20% musician. I think perhaps that I'm not wired for music quite in the same way that most others on this forum are. Also, I haven't done the hours.

 

[nat whilk II]

Ha - I haven't even picked up an instrument on this one yet.

In terms of Lee K's recent post about 80 / 20 - it would apply to me in that the past 3 years that I have seriously been attempting to develop some songwriting skills, I have probably arrived at being 80% lyricist and 20% musician. I think perhaps that I'm not wired for music quite in the same way that most others on this forum are. Also, I haven't done the hours.

 

 

I have a folder on my pc where I have dozens and dozens of sketched out lyrics in rough, haphazard form. If I hear a phrase I like or one that comes into my head, and if I'm around the computer, I'll open up a new word.doc and just start jotting whatever down.

 

If I get the jottings developed to the point that I think there might actually be a song in there somewhere, I'll just start thinking about the mood, and hopefully some sort of groove and basic feel will occur to me. Almost always these basic grooves and feels come from somebody else's song that's tucked away with the 500,000 other songs and tunes that are jammed somewhere in there, and I'll often jot down something like "basic groove and tempo like I've Just Seen A Face, but minor and more fierce."

 

From there, it's back and forth, back and forth from music to lyrics to music, 'till it's roughed out. Then the really long slog begins, where I play it and play it and tweak it and think about it until have it down as a solo singer-songwriter tune that I can perform and that I'm happy with. This long slog can easily take a year or two.

 

THEN I might start recording it, and that's where I tend to bog down entirely, unfortunately. Cause it starts this whole new set of wide-open issues like what instruments to use, which effects, will I put a lead in there, how to start it, how to end it, should I try a synth or strings or a dulcimer or samples of this or that, is that a good piano sound, maybe I should try electric piano, should I key it up or down, should I keep it simple or load up, on and on and on and the song never gets finished.

 

I just don't have time for this recording part. Much less mastering and making an album's worth that all hang together. So I've got 40-50 songs stuck in the recording process at any point in time.

 

Yarghh.

 

nat whilk ii

 

 

 

 

 

[oldgitplayer]

Thanks for sharing that ^^^ It's good to know that others experience the log jam of files full of lyrics and files full of mp3 snippets, and not pulling them together into finished songs.

I see these 3 years as serving an apprenticeship. I don't know how long it will still take, but I view all songs that I write as exercises that will give me sufficient experience to eventually write something good.

Improvising with other musicians comes easy, but the discipline of composing is still like wading through treacle.

[Lee Knight]

I've been digging this, Phil. So much so that I can't stop myself from writing music for it. Would you like me to keep that from you so you can do your thing? Or are you interested in a co-write? Any answer is a great answer. Do it yourself and I'm happy for you. Let me do it with you and I'm happy for me. Either way is great.

 

What do you think?

 

 

Here's the entire song as a 1st Draft.

I expect to change stuff once I get some music moving, but any comments on how it all hangs together in its current structure, would be much appreciated.

 

I might still want to change the 'seas of possibility' and 'swam the waters' metaphor once the song begins to evolve.

 

Ravenhurst Road

 

Intro

Turn off the village high street

Down Ravenhurst Road

 

V1

Past bright and friendly houses

Kept with love and care

To a small Victorian red brick school

No-one loved the children there

The classrooms dark and catholic

Stacked with silent load

Facts were taught us with the stick

In Ravenhurst Road

 

Chorus

Leaning on the desktop

Dreaming in the class

A boy holds on to what he’s got

And grows up fairly fast

In seas of possibility

He finds his new abode

And this boy swam the waters

In Ravenhurst Road

 

V2

The Fathers and the Brothers

With hoary Irish names

Thought that boys were born in sin

So plied their Jesus game

With Holy Ghost and Mary

Standing in the line

We mumbled meaning with their words

And served our childhood time.

 

Bridge

Now the school has gone

Its ghost haunts me no more

The scars that build our character

Sometime open doors

 

Chorus

Leaning on the desktop

Dreaming in the class

A boy holds on to what he’s got

And grows up fairly fast

In seas of possibility

He finds his new abode

And this boy swam the waters

In Ravenhurst Road

 

[oldgitplayer]

Excellent Mr K - I'm very happy for you to do the music for this. I enjoyed our collaboration on 'Turn Another Corner' very much, so it would be good to work with you again.

 

I've sung it to myself a couple of times without picking up an instrument, but I haven't been visited by the Muse.

The only thing I did (which is an entirely obvious technique) is to end the verse in a minor, to contrast jumping into a major key for the positive lyric of the chorus.

 

But over to you……...png.197c47f720636f02390cc2b0a33804da.png' alt='smiley-veryhappy'>

 

[mbfrancis]

I'm very late on this, but wow, what a great, evocative song. Everything is really wonderful. Some incredible lines: facts were taught us with a stick. Feel free to ignore, but this is a special song, here is what I hear:

 

* The meter feels off, like you are either missing or have too many words in some lines. You say it will wait for the music, but it might make sense to address it first (or Lee will, ha) - you almost certainly have to do some tightening with any melody.

 

* "No-one loved the children there." Feels heavy-handed, too definitive. Maybe "with children in its care." Then tweak your pronouns so it's "they" for v1-2 but reveal it was "you" in the last verse; e.g., reveal "And I was in it's care," calling back to the first verse.

 

* The words 'hoary' and 'abode' feel forced, unnatural, unless this is a period piece, like a folk song sung with an Irish accent. Also hoary and small-c catholic will be misunderstood by listeners (unless you really mean Catholic, in which case anyone reading it will be confused, like me).

 

* This really feels like an AABA ballad a little, like every verse tells the history and should end with "Ravenhurst Road" (RR) or whatever, and then your chorus is actually more your middle-eight, where you step back and give some perspective, and lose RR. But only do it once...I get a little whiplashed from the back/forth from verse to chorus. Then your Bridge is actually your v3, just needs to end on Ravenhurst Road. . So maybe AABAB for the fade.

 

It's great as is - feel free to ignore the above. Hope this helps in some way.

[oldgitplayer]

Those are all good observations Martin.

It is a 1st draft - half poem / half song - it's the way I write when there's no music.

What I do, is cut and paste all the comments into the file with the lyric, and go over them as I progress the song.

Some work and some don't, but it's always good to have a pocket full of possibilities during the process.

[Lee Knight]

Excellent Mr K - I'm very happy for you to do the music for this. I enjoyed our collaboration on 'Turn Another Corner' very much, so it would be good to work with you again. I've sung it to myself a couple of times without picking up an instrument, but I haven't been visited by the Muse. The only thing I did (which is an entirely obvious technique) is to end the verse in a minor, to contrast jumping into a major key for the positive lyric of the chorus. But over to you……...png.197c47f720636f02390cc2b0a33804da.png' alt='smiley-veryhappy'>

Yah! Cool Phil! Martin, I think you think like me a little. :-) or I like you? Then I lived with Phil's last draft of the lyric a little and started getting some ideas. The placement of the title throughout the lyric is interesting. Having it wrap up the first verse makes it feel like an AABA form. Then the chorus shows up. Hmmm. So naturally I want to start that chorus with the title. But Phil doesn't. :-) Put on the Elton hat for a second looking at a Bernie lyric. We don't want more of the same cadence for the beginning of the chorus. Shifting the cadence dramatically to halftime elongated feel. Shift the whole melodic arc up a third. And when the title finally hits again that was so cleverly foreshadowed at the end of the 1 verse, make a huge hook out of that title. Hopefully so much of a hook that it becomes a chorus tag. That's my plan at least and I'm sticking to it! :-) or naught.

[oldgitplayer]

I think I understand what you're saying there Mr K.

I understand song structures, but I bend them to where the lyric wants to go.

I see this song as a positive chorus and bridge with some gloomy set up in the verses.

 

Generally I like to go straight to the chorus after a 1st verse setup. Or start with a chorus. Short attention spans and all that …….

 

I'm excited already…....png.197c47f720636f02390cc2b0a33804da.png' alt='smiley-veryhappy'>

[oldgitplayer]

Mr K - Now I'm starting to think about all of this, you might also consider this as a structure with a quietish lyric Intro and Outro.

I'm not fussed either way. It's the music that's going to set the direction now.

 

Ravenhurst Road

 

Intro

Turn off the village high street

Down Ravenhurst Road

 

V1

Past bright and friendly houses

Kept with love and care

To a small Victorian red brick school

No-one loved the children there

The classrooms dark and catholic

Stacked with silent load

Facts were taught us with the stick

In Ravenhurst Road

 

Chorus

Leaning on the desktop

Dreaming in the class

A boy holds on to what he’s got

And grows up fairly fast

In seas of possibility

He finds his new abode

And this boy swam the waters

In Ravenhurst Road

 

V2

The Fathers and the Brothers

With hoary Irish names

Thought that boys were born in sin

So plied their Jesus game

With Holy Ghost and Mary

Standing in the line

We mumbled meaning with their words

And served our childhood time.

 

Chorus

Leaning on the desktop

Dreaming in the class

A boy holds on to what he’s got

And grows up fairly fast

In seas of possibility

He finds his new abode

And this boy swam the waters

In Ravenhurst Road

 

Outro

Now the school has gone

Its ghost haunts me no more

The scars that build our character

Sometime open doors