Songs: Through-composed & Strophic

[Stackabones]

Most of us work in strophic forms -- that is, we write songs with repeating sections such as verse-chorus and AABA and so forth.

 

Has anyone ever written a through-composed song, one that doesn't have repeating sections? These are often called Art Songs -- you may be familiar with Schubert's Lieder.

 

I started working on a through-composed song based on a short poem by Edna St Vincent Millay. Still messing with it, and I'll think about posting it later. I've never written something like this. How about you?

[blue2blue]

Ah... I was never sure of the definition of an art song. Good to know.

 

Are we talking just lyrics or musical context, as well? If the latter, that's pretty much how my first three or four 'keeper' songs were (the first x didn't count because I was just trying to figure out how to write a song instead of a free verse poem -- and, actually, even the first 'keepers' had more in common with my free verse poetry)... they started in one place and then sort of just meandered through a bunch of changes and words to another place (and in at least one or two cases, another key), often with a bunch of disconnected images and vague metaphors, and sometimes references to my then-current literary obsessions.

[wwwjd]

I've got some experiments that might go there. I've never finished them and probably won't. Lot of fun to create though. Also some I would call Classical-based that are not repeating sections and instrumental only. If I wasn't allowed to do those, I wouldn't bother doing music at all. And I think my earliest music sort of does that by accident as I struggled to just throw parts together and call it a song

 

So, on purpose through-composed? nnnnno.

[Stackabones]

 

Are we talking just lyrics or musical context, as well?

 

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at ... most of the time when we speak about song, don't we mean lyrics combined with music? Lyrics on their own couldn't really be considered a song, and a melody without lyrics is something a bit different that a song (Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words notwithstanding).

 

As far as musical context, do you mean something like Schubert's Winterreise -- a collection of art songs based around a theme? I don't know much about this music, and Schubert is probably the sole example in my personal library and listening history.

 

In my limited experience with these art songs, I find it interesting that they still run about the same length as a pop song. I'm sure that there are exceptions. Some of Mahler's orchestrated art songs are longer, for example.

[Lee Knight]

No, I haven't.

 

I love the long arc of earlier pop composers though. Not really an art song as they do repeat. But that long arc is wonderful. Think Wichita Lineman. How long that verse is without repeating. Or Burt Bacharat. One Less Bell To Answer. There's lots of bending a smaller motive to keep it fresh without actually repeating. Gershwin, Porter too.

 

But right through? Never done it.

[eeglug]

I've never done it. I'd like to try. Something like Zappa's "Evelyn, A Modified Dog" or "Dangerous Kitchen" probably qualifies as through-composed.

[blue2blue]

I'm not sure what you're getting at ... most of the time when we speak about song, don't we mean lyrics combined with music? Lyrics on their own couldn't really be considered a song, and a melody without lyrics is something a bit different that a song (Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words notwithstanding). As far as musical context, do you mean something like Schubert's Winterreise -- a collection of art songs based around a theme? I don't know much about this music, and Schubert is probably the sole example in my personal library and listening history. In my limited experience with these art songs, I find it interesting that they still run about the same length as a pop song. I'm sure that there are exceptions. Some of Mahler's orchestrated art songs are longer, for example.

 

I was just asking if lyrics which don't repeat, when delivered to a melody/harmonic context in a chorus/refrain that does, would fit the strophic model. I suppose, on consideration, that they would, since most folks tend to have parallel melodies in their (non-repeating) verses... so, I guess, we're in never mind territory, here.

[Stackabones]

so, I guess, we're in never mind territory, here.

 

Shades of Emily Litella?

 

[rsadasiv]

Not really. It's always about the tension between repetition and variation.

[Elias Graves]

It's weird you bring this up right now. I have a song, "Hundred Proof Mind" that I've been working on for a while. Been struggling with it and was ready to shelve it for a while, when I started looking through my notebooks for inspiration and found four other fragments that all seemed to fit. All of these fragments were written with their own meter in mind. I tried to rework them to fit the meter I was working with, but they just didn't work right when I started changing them. I finally decided to take the separate pieces and work them together as different sections. The song is kind of a snapshot of the character's life at different stages. It seemed to work, using these dissimilar sections to reinforce the image of different stages of life. Still have a long way to go with it, but it will ultimately have no repeating sections. I don't think that is exactly what you are talking about and mine has evolved by accident to be that way, but there it is.

 

What was I saying?

What was I saying?

 

EG

[Stackabones]

It's weird you bring this up right now. I have a song, "Hundred Proof Mind" that I've been working on for a while. Been struggling with it and was ready to shelve it for a while, when I started looking through my notebooks for inspiration and found four other fragments that all seemed to fit. All of these fragments were written with their own meter in mind. I tried to rework them to fit the meter I was working with, but they just didn't work right when I started changing them. I finally decided to take the separate pieces and work them together as different sections. The song is kind of a snapshot of the character's life at different stages. It seemed to work, using these dissimilar sections to reinforce the image of different stages of life. Still have a long way to go with it, but it will ultimately have no repeating sections. I don't think that is exactly what you are talking about and mine has evolved by accident to be that way, but there it is.

 

I think I get mostly what you're saying. Perhaps the idea I'm presenting is not just the idea that there is something called through-composed, but that -- as songwriters -- there may be ways of approaching songwriting that opens up ourselves to other methods?

 

While I write solely in strophic form, I'd been wondering what was going on in these lieder and art songs. It's a different approach for me as a popular song songwriter, but one that could help me discover something about myself that I hadn't known before. As a performer, I don't play in places that this approach would go over too well ... but as recording performer, there may be something I can do with these in my home studio.

 

It also gives me a chance to "collaborate" with Edna St Vincent Millay.

[Elias Graves]

I think I get mostly what you're saying. Perhaps the idea I'm presenting is not just the idea that there is something called through-composed, but that -- as songwriters -- there may be ways of approaching songwriting that opens up ourselves to other methods? While I write solely in strophic form, I'd been wondering what was going on in these lieder and art songs. It's a different approach for me as a popular song songwriter, but one that could help me discover something about myself that I hadn't known before. As a performer, I don't play in places that this approach would go over too well ... but as recording performer, there may be something I can do with these in my home studio. It also gives me a chance to "collaborate" with Edna St Vincent Millay.

 

No soup for me.

 

EG

[bostonwal]

So as I understand, this would be a song that goes ABCDEFG... Not ABABCAB or something.

So, would you be able to repeat a 4-chord progression twice to make for an 8 bar A section and then move on to a B section? Or is there no repetition of the 4 chord part? In which case you're really making a song with one looooooonnng section.

 

I definitely want to try ABCDEFG... And then what would be interesting is to make "regular" songs based on each of those sections (or pairs of sections).

[tspit74]

I've never done it. Seems like it would be interesting.

 

Thing is, my songs kind of come at me. I try not to get in the way too much. I do a little shaping and repeating after they've come and whip them into shape. But for me, the song seems to know what it wants to be as long as I get out of the way and let it do it's thing. For some reason, most of them just want to stick to the ABABCAB from.

[Stackabones]

 

Thing is, my songs kind of come at me. I try not to get in the way too much. I do a little shaping and repeating after they've come and whip them into shape. But for me, the song seems to know what it wants to be as long as I get out of the way and let it do it's thing. For some reason, most of them just want to stick to the ABABCAB from.

 

 

That's a good point. But if you don't know the possibilities of song, then you may only recognize one way to shape them.

 

I recall when I first started writing songs. The only form I knew was verse-chorus ... I thought ALL songs were verse-chorus and so all the songs I wrote "just naturally" fell into that form. Then I learned about a rondo (ABACADA) and I started recognizing that some of the ideas I had may have actually worked better in that form. Later, I learned AABA and once again realized that certain ideas I came up just fell into that shape.

 

Rather than trying to shoehorn every idea into verse-chorus, I now have a greater stock of forms to better utilize certain ideas. Most still fall into verse-chorus or AABA, but now I can actually get out of the way of the song and let it fall into a form.

 

Listening habits also influence me. I've been listening to the Great American Songbook and, lo and behold, my ideas are generally falling into AABA. Were I to start a steady diet of Schubert's Lieder, who knows?

[Okieslims]

One of the first songs I ever wrote was like that. I put it on soundclick and was surprised as hell when it stayed at #1 on the acoustic folk charts for quite a while. I was ahead of guys that could actually play the guitar..lol.. don't ask me how. Here it is.

 

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=233247&q=hi

[Okieslims]

 

One of the first songs I ever wrote was like that. I put it on soundclick and was surprised as hell when it stayed at #1 on the acoustic folk charts for quite a while. I was ahead of guys that could actually play the guitar..lol.. don't ask me how. Here it is. http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=233247&q=hi

 

 

actually.. I just listened to it for the first time in a year.. it does have one repeating verse..and lol at my attempt to sing high at the end

[tspit74]

 

That's a good point. But if you don't know the possibilities of song, then you may only recognize one way to shape them.

 

 

I listen to lots of different music and forms. I know all about rondos, sonata allegro, basso ostonato, etc. I probably should revisit some of those techniques and rules and see what happens. I'm always inspired by the nuts and bolts of theory. Maybe I'm just lazy and try to guide my ideas thru a safe journey to their conclusion by sticking to the old AABA crutch.

 

I have a similar problem with recording. I'm a gear hound and love vintage instruments, amps, effects, and analogue keyboards but rarely if ever record with them. Just like with songwriting, I need to strike when the iron's hot and get a song out of me by nailing the lyric, melody and form within a 1/2 hour. Then over the next 24 hours, think about it obsessively and fine tune it in my mind. Then only when it's completely set in my mind, do I actually grab a guitar or sit at the piano and figure out the chords. When recording I take a similar path of least resistance approach and usually play my least favorite digital piano because I can just plug in direct and get something down rather than pulling the Rhodes out of the closet, pulling a vintage phaser out, looking for 3 cables that work, tracing the 60 cycle hum, tuning a few keys that are a little flat, etc.

 

Oh well. I'm babbling. What I'm actually saying when inspiration strikes, I like to nail it as fast as possible and common structure facilitates the process most efficiently. Also, life is complicated and busy. Sometimes all you've got is 20 to get something before life starts getting in the way.

 

I'd love to experiment with other forms but they would be more deliberate and taken on as more of a research and development operation. For example, I've always wanted to write a Bolero. Just have a really fantastic long-form melody and build up the supporting parts slowly, instrument by instrument, up to a triumphant crescendo. Ah...

[Stackabones]

 

What I'm actually saying when inspiration strikes, I like to nail it as fast as possible and common structure facilitates the process most efficiently.

 

 

Yeah, I hear ya! I'm all for common structures. I know that most of what I write will fall right into the common ones. The whole thorough-composed song process is a bit slower ... at least it has been for the one I'm in the process of writing, or perhaps have written -- maybe it's done? Not sure if I'll write more in this manner -- I'd probably be more inclined to write a 32-bar ballad.

[Lee Knight]

 

...Then I learned about a rondo (ABACADA) and I started recognizing that some of the ideas I had may have actually worked better in that form...

 

 

Now you've got me thinking. Are there any pop examples of a Rondo? Nothing's jumping out at me but honestly I've not really listened for it.

[Stackabones]

Now you've got me thinking. Are there any pop examples of a Rondo? Nothing's jumping out at me but honestly I've not really listened for it.

 

I don't think so. I messed with it, but never got anything together. It definitely worked better for me without lyrics. I worked up something as an exercise, but it wasn't exactly memorable.

 

In theory, a rondo would seem like it would work and be fun with all those A sections repeating and each subsequent section changing. I'd think you'd have to have a certain lyric ... maybe something similar to an approach like Rashomon -- a story told from different viewpoints. Courtroom drama. He said/she said.

[eeglug]

 

Now you've got me thinking. Are there any pop examples of a Rondo? Nothing's jumping out at me but honestly I've not really listened for it.

 

 

The Beatles "I'll Be Back" comes close, depending on how how one delineates the sections of that song - I would say it's ABACABA. That song is kind of an odd duck to me but that doesn't mean a rondo in ABACADA can't be done well.

[eddieboston2]

How about "Hey Ya?" Brilliant song, I think, even if it's not my typical genre.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIw5ZqC1ms

[Stackabones]

How about "Hey Ya?" Brilliant song, I think, even if it's not my typical genre. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIw5ZqC1ms

 

I'm not sure which form you think this represents. It's definitely strophic, not through-composed. Cool tune, briliant vid.

 

What's your point about this one?

[eddieboston2]

I'm not sure which form you think this represents. It's definitely strophic, not through-composed. Cool tune, briliant vid. What's your point about this one?

 

Maybe I'm using a different definition of "repetition", but the form seems like ABCBDB to me, which looks similar to a rondo. Although the instrumental accompaniment is constant throughout, the vocal melodies of the verses are never the same twice.