Members oldgitplayer Posted August 5, 2011 Members Share Posted August 5, 2011 I'm getting the hang of how the forum can work for different people in different ways.My MO has been strictly solo or writing lyrics for a piece of music provided by a friend, so I'd like to now attempt to work with the forum's input. I've pulled this one out to test the waters (pun intended), because these 2 verses were written 6 months ago without an edit, and I'm looking at them again for the 1st time. Obviously more needs to be written, but I thought I might establish the backing chords and vocal melody for the verse before doing any more. I have yet to determine where I will go with it. For me, that's the easy part. Vocal melody is probably my weakest area. I write in a number of genres, and this looks like it could be folk-rock about 120 -130 bpm. Think Fairport Convention or Steeleye Span. So if someone handed these 2 verses to you, what would you do musically? The Endless River Verse : I live on the banks of a fast flowing riverThe voice of the waters a constant friendWhispering tales of it's unseen beginningsAnd where it might go to an unknown end. Verse : The river was here before my beginningIt still will be flowing when I reach my endThe voice of the water sometimes tells its secretsTo the solitary soul who may need a friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LCK Posted August 5, 2011 Members Share Posted August 5, 2011 It's a good start. I'm not getting a definitive feeling of rhythm from the words alone. For me there's nothing to critique here, no suggestions to make, until I hear the tune. LCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stickboymusic Posted August 5, 2011 Members Share Posted August 5, 2011 Yes its a fine start Not sure if i would use the word "end" in both verses (if possible?) And maybe "the voice of the water OFTEN tells its secrets...." I like to think that the water would help many a lonely person and not be too picky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oswlek Posted August 5, 2011 Members Share Posted August 5, 2011 Frankly, I'm terrible at overlaying different musical styles on a set of lyrics. Just brutal. So, the only thing I can offer is a lyric critique. You use "friend/end/beginning(s)" as the final word in both stanzas. That might work if the first is the open and the second is going to be the last one, but it would sound too repetitive if they appear back to back in the song, IMO. Even seperated by a chorus I still think it would sound too similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldgitplayer Posted August 5, 2011 Author Members Share Posted August 5, 2011 I completely agree with the comments on the 'friend / end / beginnings' repetitiveness. Both 'verses' will probably morph into one once I get working on it.This is just raw material - a first tumbling out of an idea which will be a metaphor that can be heard on face value and at a more esoteric level. Thanks for 'often' to replace 'sometimes' - i will use that change. As I said in the OP - I'm testing the water here and seeing whether there are people out there with musical minds that see lyrics and say, "Why don't you do that in a minor key?" or "That lends itself to mixolydian" or something like that. The forum does that with lyrics, so I'm thinking, why not with music? I would like to discover how other people work, because I don't have a method. I simply mess around until I find a musical connection to the lyric. I have very little music theory under my belt and have played by ear all my life. It works better the other way round for me when someone plays a musical idea to me - it usually has a mood that I can write lyrics to. Anyway - I'll resort to my old methods if there are no further suggestions. They work in their own slow and muddley sort of way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhino55 Posted August 5, 2011 Members Share Posted August 5, 2011 Frankly, I'm terrible at overlaying different musical styles on a set of lyrics. Just brutal. So, the only thing I can offer is a lyric critique.You use "friend/end/beginning(s)" as the final word in both stanzas. That might work if the first is the open and the second is going to be the last one, but it would sound too repetitive if they appear back to back in the song, IMO. Even seperated by a chorus I still think it would sound too similar. I think it'd be cool at an opening and closing verse. Are you looking for chords or melody? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oswlek Posted August 5, 2011 Members Share Posted August 5, 2011 I would like to discover how other people work, because I don't have a method. I simply mess around until I find a musical connection to the lyric. I have very little music theory under my belt and have played by ear all my life. I actually have a pretty sound handle on music theory (not quite as strong as Rsa's but decent nonetheless) and your post still describes my songwriting process. I don't really use theory until I start tweaking an already forming idea. I've seen Rhino put on some impressive displays of seeing music to a set of lyrics. He once recognized that a set of lyrics I had posted was in 3/4 without any music or input from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhino55 Posted August 5, 2011 Members Share Posted August 5, 2011 I actually have a pretty sound handle on music theory (not quite as strong as Rsa's but decent nonetheless) and your process still describes my songwriting process. I don't really use theory until I start tweaking an already forming idea.I've seen Rhino put on some impressive displays of seeing music to a set of lyrics. He once recognized that a set of lyrics I had posted was in 3/4 without any music or input from me. *blushes* I probably was just thinking in 3/4 that day and got lucky When I'm putting music to a set of lyrics like this, I start by reading them straight through a dozen times or so before even thinking about melody. In starting I try to keep as much of the natural cadence of my own speech habits with the set of words. I do this with whatever verse works first and then usually go and make the others fit to that pattern. Pitch change happens at the same time. I don't really know how. It just sort of works itself out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldgitplayer Posted August 5, 2011 Author Members Share Posted August 5, 2011 I think it'd be cool at an opening and closing verse. Are you looking for chords or melody? Whatever you've got - any fragment of melody that I can build on, or chord sequence that you think appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaw2222 Posted August 5, 2011 Members Share Posted August 5, 2011 I really really like it. It conjures up a nice image in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldgitplayer Posted August 5, 2011 Author Members Share Posted August 5, 2011 When I'm putting music to a set of lyrics like this, I start by reading them straight through a dozen times or so before even thinking about melody. In starting I try to keep as much of the natural cadence of my own speech habits with the set of words. I do this with whatever verse works first and then usually go and make the others fit to that pattern.Pitch change happens at the same time. I don't really know how. It just sort of works itself out Interesting - I develop all my melodies with my speaking cadence as a starting point or simply 'letting go' and singing away in an uninhibited way with the H1 running. Most times there's something there that I use. Key, tempo and rhythm seem to fall in place with the lyric. And because I'm a crap singer, (and I mean really crap), I'm trying to improve my voice a bit by extending my speaking voice (which is fine) and finding comfortable pitches and keys for songs. Not for performance reasons, but just so I don't shrink with embarrassment when doing demos. So this thread has taught me already (well Rhino & Oswlek) that there's probably not some mysterious songwriting formula I need yet to learn, which is comforting. I think I can perhaps continue to pick up a bit here and a bit there, and build on my existing MO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldgitplayer Posted August 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 I moved the song on today. I have developed melody, chords, and other musical aspects of the arrangement that I will record soon. And I think Rhino is right - with the verse and bridge in place, the repetition of words in the first and last verses works for it rather than against it. But here are the lyrics for comment: The endless river Instrumental Intro : Verse 1: I live on the banks of a fast flowing riverThe voice of the waters a constant friendWhispering tales of it's unseen beginnings And where it might go to an unknown end. Instrumental link : Verse 2 : When the riverbank crumbles the waters will take meSweeping away all I ever have been The waters run strong and the current is certainBut where I might go has no certainty Bridge : A raindrop comes from a mighty oceanFalls from the sky to nourish the earthRuns with the streams and on to the riversBecoming them all, and back to its source. Instrumental link : Verse 3 : The river was here before my beginningAnd still will be flowing when I reach my endThe voice of the water often tells its secretsTo the solitary soul who may need a friend. Instrumental Outro : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LCK Posted August 7, 2011 Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 I'm assuming that the lyric will change somewhat as you develop the tune. That said, I think this verse needs a few minor (or not so minor) fixes. A raindrop comes from a mighty oceanFalls from the sky to nourish the earthRuns with the streams and on to the riversBecoming them all, and back to its source. "Mighty ocean" is a bit of a cliche. I get where you're going with this, each raindrop forms as the result of evaporation from sea water, but I'd find a replacement for "mighty," one that gives the listener a more immediate sense of the size difference. "Mighty" has other connotations, and sounds too "folk songy." "Runs with the streams" is kind of what you mean (I think), but I'd use something that shows that the tiny raindrop becomes engulfed in, or is mixed with the other H20 molecules in the river. "Becoming them all" is also inexact. Becoming one with them all is more exact, but probably won't fit the structure of the melody. Can't wait to hear the tune. LCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted August 7, 2011 Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 The ocean might be endless. It's another cliche, of course, but it might not be quite as distracting. You might divert attention by using an endless ocean. But there are other two syllable adjectives kicking around. I'm not always comfortable giving specific suggestions (because I'm often not comfortable getting them, I guess). Flows with streams is similarly worn but might be less distracting than the ambiguous verb runs. Becoming them all is a bit distracting, too. Maybe, one with them all? It's better, of course, that you developed your own music... but I was kind of disappointed I didn't get a chance to get a potential lick in there. Oh, well, that's what I get for being preoccupied with 3DW toil and strife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted August 7, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 7, 2011 mother ocean A raindrop comes from mother oceanFalls from the sky to nourish the earthRuns with the streams and on to the riversBecoming them all, and back to its source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted August 7, 2011 Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 mother oceanA raindrop comes from mother oceanFalls from the sky to nourish the earthRuns with the streams and on to the riversBecoming them all, and back to its source.I hate to get overly technical, but isn't the ocean the father and the earth the mother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldgitplayer Posted August 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 No - not happy with implying the ocean as a parent.But you've got me thinking 'restless' which implies movement all the way through : restless - falls - runs - on to - back to. A raindrop comes from a restless oceanFalls from the sky to nourish the earthFlows (Runs) with the streams and with riversAt one with them all, and on to its source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhino55 Posted August 8, 2011 Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 No - not happy with implying the ocean as a parent.But you've got me thinking 'restless' which implies movement all the way through : restless - falls - runs - on to - back to.A raindrop comes from a restless oceanFalls from the sky to nourish the earthFlows (Runs) with the streams and with riversAt one with them all, and on to its source. I like that. It starts with the ocean being restless and ends with "At one with," which makes me think of peace, but doesn't ever deny the restlessness. It has a full circle sort of thing, like the water cycle EDIT: did you ever come up with a melody? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bee3 Posted August 8, 2011 Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 This is slightly off-topic, but having read your initial lyric, I couldn't help but think of this book by John Irving (one of my favorite authors): http://www.john-irving.com/Last_Night_In_Twisted_River.asp Good read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oswlek Posted August 8, 2011 Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 No - not happy with implying the ocean as a parent.But you've got me thinking 'restless' which implies movement all the way through : restless - falls - runs - on to - back to.A raindrop comes from a restless oceanFalls from the sky to nourish the earthFlows (Runs) with the streams and with riversAt one with them all, and on to its source. Very strong verse. "Runs" is best, IMO, because it keeps the "restless" feel going until finally resolving into "at one". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldgitplayer Posted August 9, 2011 Author Members Share Posted August 9, 2011 Thanks for all the input on this - I'm really enjoying the process.I would now like to build the musical arrangement in the forum. I have all the parts worked out, but haven't yet heard them in combination. I'll do a voice and guitar click track first for comment, and then follow up with the layers.I have a rudimentary knowledge of Garageband but I'm totally green at this, so it's going to take me a while.My background has always been about 4 musicians falling in together. The process of one person doing multiple-track recording is something I have to get a handle on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LCK Posted August 9, 2011 Members Share Posted August 9, 2011 The process of one person doing multiple-track recording is something I have to get a handle on. Me too. Best of luck! LCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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