Members Dr. Tweedbucket Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 There really are no rules and that's why this can be so much fun! Basically, I look at popular songs that were big hits and try to see trends, then copy them. Stairway to heaven is a bad example .... I mean, if you want to get confused, just look at that song. So with that out of the way, it seems that many good songs have like 4 or 5 distinct parts. 1. Verses 2. Pre chorus or bridge to chorus 3. Chorus 4. Middle 8 or bridge 5. Solo (optional these days) Then there are song that totally drop down and go into some other mode for a while, but neatly find a way to seamlessly merge back into the chorus .... I love songs like that where it's such a perfect fit. So, what do you do, start with a chorus and end with a chorus or start with a verse intro and then do the first verse right away? And do you get right to the chorus fairly quick so you don't bore your audience to death? It's really a confusing thing. And too, it's probably not good to have every single song cookie cuttered out into the same pattern, so that's where the challenge comes in. And then there are the lyrics, melody lines, harmonies, musical instruments, getting a good sound down on tape, mixing it to get some instrument separation and then hoping you don't have to mic back up and try to punch something in and perfectly match the original sound and volume Anyone else have a tried and true method for song construction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oswlek Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 My template is to write songs that tend to be 3 minutes too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dr. Tweedbucket Posted March 1, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 My template is to write songs that tend to be 3 minutes too long. Yeah, there are so many great songs that were only 2.5 minutes to 3 minutes .... it's amazing. Most of mine seem to be around 4 to 5 minutes Beyond 5 minutes, unless it's got a killer hook that just won't let go, I think you're toast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted March 1, 2012 Moderators Share Posted March 1, 2012 I started analyzing pop song structure as a teenager. 35 years ago! I still love to do it. And as I listen to radio or a new CD I can easily switch into that mode of listening. I don't restrict myself to any one way of ordering things. The song I'm working on will dictate how I structure it. And, of course, I'm always aware of what others are doing. What I find interesting is spotting the variations producers will sprinkle throughout the arrangement. For instance, V2 adds 16th note kick drum pickups, a B3 pad and a shaker. A 2nd guitar comes in halfway through V2 on a 2 + 4 skank thing. Or whatever. So it's not "what do I do?" It's more being aware of all the variations others are doing and how I want to incorporate any of it to what I'm working on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LeonardScaper Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 Wait! You guys use templates??? Seriously though, I have recently been trying to get some more acceptable structure to my songwriting...with limited success. I was never one for song analyses and that becomes pretty obvious with just a cursory perusal of my catalog. I mean I have never actually sat down and planned out a song. I guess my songs are structured on a more unconscious level that draws from all those years of listening. That's a good thing in that my stuff is....recognizably different. It is a bad thing in that I have been told repeatedly by Music Industry Professionals that my songs lack commercially viable structure. So much for my next big radio hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted March 1, 2012 Moderators Share Posted March 1, 2012 Wait! You guys use templates??? Seriously though, I have recently been trying to get some more acceptable structure to my songwriting...with limited success. I was never one for song analyses and that becomes pretty obvious with just a cursory perusal of my catalog. I mean I have never actually sat down and planned out a song. I guess my songs are structured on a more unconscious level that draws from all those years of listening. That's a good thing in that my stuff is....recognizably different. It is a bad thing in that I have been told repeatedly by Music Industry Professionals that my songs lack commercially viable structure. So much for my next big radio hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bee3 Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 No template... but I keep writing A/B/A/B/C formatted songs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Matximus Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 I shoot for all songs to be 2:30 minutes or less. Intros need to be 10 seconds at most - but I prefer songs that start cold or with just a cool fill-in riff and then start singing. If you are not singing the chorus within 30 seconds then you need to move it along fella. I also like to write songs that use the same chord progresson for the chorus and the melody. It tends to be easy and flows well. I'm with you on using hit songs as a blue-print. I think that is a very winning Idea. I typically get obsessed with a single song and end up writing four or five different songs that pivot off the basic approach of that song. I do that a lot. So coming up with solid, workable structures, tends to be easy work because I listen to a lot of songs and tend to learn how to play new songs I really, really enjoy. Lately that has been oldies: Wondrous Place by Billy Fury; Tragedy by Thomas Wayne; Can't Let Go by Evie Sands. Those are all magical songs rife with very very good concise & tricks worth knowing. These are the songs I am currently ripping off. They are sort of similar in several key ways. Myrna March (Our love it grows) written by Ellie Greenwich. You'd Better Come Home - Russell Byrd (AKA Bert Berns) written by Bert, I believe.: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rickidoo Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 I don't know about "template" per say, but I have certain habits that I tend to follow, knowingly or unknowingly, for right or wrong. I don't always follow them, and sometimes later when I relisten to a song I'm glad I didn't or I wish I did. 1. Better be a real interesting story and well done verses to put 2 verses before the 1st chorus. 2. Otherwise 1 verse then onto the chorus, especially if the chorus is strong. 3. Is the song of such a length or is it complex enough in story or melody that I need to give listeners a comfortable diversion, otherwise known as a bridge? If yes, do.. if not, don't. 4. Cut you cut it and still tell a good story? Then, try cutting it and see what happens. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marshal Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 Wait! You guys use templates??? Cookie cutter. I use a cookie cutter. Seriously, I don't use anything. (surprising, huh? ), other than time. From the early times I fixate on a musical pattern and maybe a theme, I start thinking of repeats and ways out, and pretty soon do a little stop watch thing. I shoot for 3:00 to 3:45. There's only a few tunes that ever clock in at over 4:00 (which is OK). Only one I do regularly is at 4:30+. Sometimes I'll spin thought the pattern and actually have to figure on adding some filler to get it up at 3:00 or so. Then I have a template for that musical pattern. Emotional rise and fall. Get in, get out. Only then do I go about fitting the outline of the story or theme into the framework. Many times, I'll decide to limit the story progression, because the original concept is too large to fit in the time constraints. It's also fun to (and frustrating) to try to condense a complex segment into a few words. But that's all the space she gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LCK Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 Sometimes I use a template, sometimes the song becomes its own template. Sometimes the song starts out with a template but changes the structure on its own somewhere in the writing process. I think emotion is my primary template. Everything evolves from that. LCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kurdy Posted March 1, 2012 Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 To me, there are so many ways to be creative in a song, that to experiment wildly with song structure feels unnecessary. Working within the structure is part of what makes it fun. Everything I write has some variation of verse/chorus...I'm not really interested in straying too far from that. Also, I like being concise...probably a reaction to my younger days, when I had the habit of making songs that broke the five minute mark...my recent songs all tend to hover around three and a half minutes. I guess I could make them shorter, but I seem to be a sucker for that big "one more time" chorus at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chicken Monkey Posted March 2, 2012 Members Share Posted March 2, 2012 No template... but I keep writing A/B/A/B/C formatted songs. Mostly this, with some classic AABA and verse/chorus (no bridge) mixed in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dr. Tweedbucket Posted March 3, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 3, 2012 That's an interesting way to look at it, and thanks for your input. I always felt a good song needed a bridge of some sort ... and probably that comes from analyzing Beatles tunes. The middle 8 is what really added charm to many of their songs, but they were such masters at making something so simple sound so good. I do have a song that has no middle 8 and it's one of my best tunes, so I guess it can work just fine. I don't know about "template" per say, but I have certain habits that I tend to follow, knowingly or unknowingly, for right or wrong. I don't always follow them, and sometimes later when I relisten to a song I'm glad I didn't or I wish I did. 1. Better be a real interesting story and well done verses to put 2 verses before the 1st chorus. 2. Otherwise 1 verse then onto the chorus, especially if the chorus is strong. 3. Is the song of such a length or is it complex enough in story or melody that I need to give listeners a comfortable diversion, otherwise known as a bridge? If yes, do.. if not, don't. 4. Cut you cut it and still tell a good story? Then, try cutting it and see what happens. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldgitplayer Posted March 3, 2012 Members Share Posted March 3, 2012 Surely the content of the song determines everything? - the structure, the music, the instruments used, etc......Why use templates as a starting point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted March 3, 2012 Moderators Share Posted March 3, 2012 Surely the content of the song determines everything? - the structure, the music, the instruments used, etc......Why use templates as a starting point? For me... that can be a downfall. I know it seems to go against a lot folks sense of independence and artistic freedom but, I like having a clear idea of what structure I'm going for. Of course, any source material (that song idea stuff) can dictate changes in direction but, I like having a structure to work. Why? Because it does the opposite for me. It inspires me to do something new and fresh with a V1 or a Chorus tag. A verse doesn't have to be 8 bars. How about 9? How about 8 + 1/2? I'm not a fan of a song's direction blowing in the wind. It feels noncommittal to me. It robs the song of any sort underlying sense of rightness. That's what structure does for me. It lends my ideas a sense of purpose. There's something wonderful about coming 'round to the V2 and filling that slightly odd structure you've created with fresh ideas. But still adhering to the structure. So template? As in someone else's? Sure... but as a starting point. I'm going to do my own thing with it. Or not. But I'm not going to stumble into something and look a back and call it structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kurdy Posted March 3, 2012 Members Share Posted March 3, 2012 Surely the content of the song determines everything? - the structure, the music, the instruments used, etc......Why use templates as a starting point? I agree with this...I think the answer to your question is in your question. "Starting point" = a place to begin. It doesn't mean the template is unchangeable or can't be broken. The content will determine whether it is necessary to add an additional verse, or take out a few bars, or whatever needs to be done...but to at least having a structure in mind at the beginning can be helpful to some. But another person might find that thinking about structure trips them up, and are more comfortable letting the song reveal itself more organically. This is a perfectly valid approach too. It's about what works for you. I think, songwriters, to a certain degree are at least aware of structure on a subconscious level...we absorb this stuff without always being fully aware of it. Sometimes, paying attention to song structure on a more conscious level can provide greater clarity about what we are doing, but it isn't always necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wrongnote85 Posted March 3, 2012 Members Share Posted March 3, 2012 wherever the song wants to go is where i let it go. having a structure model or a formula would be really weird to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pitar Posted March 3, 2012 Members Share Posted March 3, 2012 Nothing in particular. I've never even thought of songwriting reduced to templates or outlines or other fixed format guides. Think poetry and a melody to float it on. That simple. Sometimes I think this forum over-complicates the whole of songwriting because it can. People come here to talk about it and then over-talk it. That's an observation, not a remark to incite a riot. Just think simply. Words and music. If you are poetry-challenged, pick up a couple books on the subject and of all things you take from that take meter and it's application and leave the rest. The former is the education, the latter is the influence. You only need the former. Then get good at the musical instrument of your choosing. It takes both to keep songwriting simple. Remember, songwriting is a simple process of taking one instrument's melody - perhaps just your own voice (acapella) - and some words laid down in a meter and scheme. That's songwriting. It doesn't need to be orchestrated to be called a song. Stay very simple and don't over work it. Also, don't get hung up on your darlings. Those are phrases or thoughts that just compel and compel you to be compelled but otherwise can't deliver or get over worked. At best they hi-jack you every time you think about writing. Lose them. If you can't write a song as simple as one about, oh, say a tiny busy little ant, then you are not ready to write yet. You haven't eased your mind enough to let it think that way. Take a very rudimentary thing or thought and write a poem from it. Lower your expectations. Graham Nash's "Feel a little smaller and in stature you will rise" carries more than a bit of truth to it. Don't go looking to write for the giants to be counted as one of them. Write for the ants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted March 4, 2012 Moderators Share Posted March 4, 2012 I feel appropriately scolded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LeonardScaper Posted March 4, 2012 Members Share Posted March 4, 2012 I feel appropriately scolded. Yeah? Well I think that there is serious merit to your philosophy. I think that the best of both worlds is a collaboration between the two extremes. I have a partner here who is extremely anal about structure. He gets to pulling his hair out with me sometimes because of my rebellious nature, but when we get down to work together we churn out some well structured yet wonderfully fluid material. I would love to sit down and write with you some time, Lee Knight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted March 4, 2012 Moderators Share Posted March 4, 2012 Me too, Leo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldgitplayer Posted March 4, 2012 Members Share Posted March 4, 2012 In my mind there are no absolutes on this topic.One day I'll let the content determine the structure. Another day I'll be writing within a well-tried format. Individually we'll all work differently, and thank goodness for that!!!!At the end of the day, it's the music that comes out of the horn that counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted March 4, 2012 Moderators Share Posted March 4, 2012 At the end of the day, it's the music that comes out of the horn that counts. And I'm getting horny just thinking about it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldgitplayer Posted March 4, 2012 Members Share Posted March 4, 2012 And I'm getting horny just thinking about it! There must be something in that West Coast water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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