Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.

What key?

Collapse
X
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • I'm going to try and make this my last post on the subject, because we're not communicating here, and the argument is circular.
    Originally posted by 1001gear View Post
    Still rhetoric and incomplete at that. I nor you need not be told what key it is. The discrepancy and legalese have all been hashed out. So has right and wrong. The bad guys still beg to differ.
    Sorry I find all that hard to follow.
    Originally posted by 1001gear View Post
    FCD is not a secondary function because SHA is in D.
    Yes, IF it is in D. No, if it isn't.
    Your obtuseness over this is frankly hilarious. I'd be screaming in frustration if it wasn't so ridiculous. (It occurs to me that perhaps this is a really rather fine piece of trolling...)
    Originally posted by 1001gear View Post
    V IV I in G occurs but G has not been previously established nor does the harmonic scheme provide any linear (voice leading) support.
    In your opinion.
    For those who hear G clearly as the key, it's established right away in bar 2. There are many pieces of music which don't begin on the tonic. Key doesn't have to be established right on the first beat of the tune.
    Voice leading is irrelevant, the chord relationships (and bass line) can be enough.
    Originally posted by 1001gear View Post
    As presented in SHA DCG is just vernacular with the grammar of the lyric providing the only resolution on the G.
    Well, a lot of those who hear D as key cite the vocal as evidence for them - the vocal is mostly focussed around D (its resolutions to G are fleeting and ambiguous). It's those intro chords that make me hear G as the key, before the vocal comes in.

    But like I say, this is kind of pointless and circular, but you refuse to see that - you keep parrotting this insane "SHA is in D" mantra, for some strange reason. I'm wondering if it's because you're actually unsure of your ground yourself that you have to keep insisting, and refusing to accept that it can heard any other way.
    As I've said, I'm not trying to convince you it's in G. That would be as crazy as you trying to convince us it's in D.

    Anyway, I'm no longer interested. Well done for trolling so expertly for so long. I'm spitting out the bait..
    ...

    Comment


    • Ok first, the LYRIC not the vocal. The phrase; is it a sentence (?) ends on the G chord. Therefore any intellectual logic drunk or sober might find repose in the G chord.

      As to D or G, anyone is allowed their own perception. Harmonically there is structure for D and not for G; just the notion that it's a retrograde fragment to G.
      It's in D.

      The relevance of this argument?
      I'm not arguing. Musically it's in D. You can call it anything else and develop it into a wonder of the universe - the key word being DEVELOP. Taken as is, G is just an element in a D progression.




      Originally posted by Unconfigured Static HTML Widget...








      Write Something, or Drag and Drop Images Here...

      Comment


      • So, 11 pages later and my first reply to the topic is still correct. Thanks for the laughs 1001gear. You are a good troll. I almost fell for it. No one can be as stubborn and immature as you are without it being a gag. Calling it D Dorian is what really made me start laughing. Good one. That's what exposed you as a troll out to cause strife, because you can't be serious with that.

        One measure of D, one measure of C, *two* measures of G, and the song resolves on G. Still no case made for D other than "it sounds like D to me", which is an answer I will accept (as tonal center is subjective), but only without the childish snark shown here.

        "Tonal center" is a matter of perception, as is "total jackass". Thanks for putting up with him, guys.

        My advice to anyone interested in a real answer and not a jackass contest: Play a G repetitively over the riff (all three chords), and then do the same with D. Whichever note seems more important and structural is the tonal center to your ears. For me, it is G. This is going purely by sound (the theory that backs it up is just icing on the cake). To others, it is D. There is no single correct answer no matter what some kids want to believe. If you want to put a name on it, G Major or D Mixolydian work great. They communicate what notes are used in the song. A wrong answer like D Dorian does not. That would cause great confusion when trying to jam. The tune doesn't even have a Dorian quality to it.

        If still in doubt, look at what the guy that wrote the song says: G. Probably a better authority than anyone in this thread, especially the troll, unless "D" stands for "denial".
        Last edited by Special B; 06-21-2014, 01:02 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Special B View Post
          So, 11 pages later and my first reply to the topic is still correct. Thanks for the laughs 1001gear. You are a good troll. I almost fell for it. No one can be as stubborn and immature as you are without it being a gag. Calling it D Dorian is what really made me start laughing. Good one. That's what exposed you as a troll out to cause strife, because you can't be serious with that.

          One measure of D, one measure of C, *two* measures of G, and the song resolves on G. Still no case made for D other than "it sounds like D to me", which is an answer I will accept (as tonal center is subjective), but only without the childish snark shown here.

          "Tonal center" is a matter of perception, as is "total jackass". Thanks for putting up with him, guys.

          My advice to anyone interested in a real answer and not a jackass contest: Play a G repetitively over the riff (all three chords), and then do the same with D. Whichever note seems more important and structural is the tonal center to your ears. For me, it is G. This is going purely by sound (the theory that backs it up is just icing on the cake). To others, it is D. There is no single correct answer no matter what some kids want to believe. If you want to put a name on it, G Major or D Mixolydian work great. They communicate what notes are used in the song. A wrong answer like D Dorian does not. That would cause great confusion when trying to jam. The tune doesn't even have a Dorian quality to it.

          If still in doubt, look at what the guy that wrote the song says: G. Probably a better authority than anyone in this thread, especially the troll, unless "D" stands for "denial".
          Still insults for musical progress. Here's your original post:

          Originally posted by Special B View Post
          Sorry if I come off as combative, or nitpicky. No disrespect is meant.


          Using key signature and mode labels always makes sense. Those labels simply exist to make communication easier. They don't change what you hear. You can call it G Ionian or D Mixolydian, but you cannot call it D Ionian or Major (not saying you did). That would be simply false. If you told someone it was in the key of D, they would assume it has a C# in it instead of a C, so it would not be an effective way to communicate the key of the song. D Mixolydian or G Ionian would be.

          The song uses C natural, not C#, so it cannot be in the key of D (Ionian). If you hear D as the tonal center, then it is D mixolydian, not D (natural) major.
          Perception of the tonal center is subjective. Which notes are in a key signature is not. Key signatures (and which notes they include) are defined and not a matter of opinion or perception.

          I think V-IV-I in G is a stronger candidate than I-vii-V in D mixolydian because the IV and V are the strongest two chords in a major key (they imply the tonal center more than the vii does) aside from the tonic, which the progression ends on.

          Determining which mode a song is in can be tricky since relative modes use the same notes. But the order is what gives it away. V-IV-I being one of the options is a dead giveaway.



          I hear it clearly resolving to G, but that is subjective. The song cannot be in the key of D because it does not use the notes of the key of D. It could be in the mode of D mixolydian, but that is different than D natural major. The song uses a C natural instead of a C#. It wouldn't make sense to use the key signature of D and put a natural sign next to every C. It makes more sense to use the key signature of G. That doesn't mean the song cannot be in a mode of G, such as D mixolydian.

          The C is not used as an out note, it is the root of one of the three chords. It is part of the key signature.

          I totally understand people hearing D as the tonal center, even though I hear it very clearly as G. I agree that it is subjective and a matter of perception. I am just saying to call it what it is. D Mixolydian is not D Ionian and saying the song is in "the key of D" just because the tonal center is D is misleading. Sweet Home Alabama is not in the key of D, but with a C instead of a C# (b7 instead of a major 7). There is already a name for that. Mixolydian. If you want to call D the tonal center then you must say it is in the mode of D mixolydian. In the same way you wouldn't call a song in B Phrygian "in the key of B".



          Can't be D Major. D Major does not have a b7 in it. D Mixolydian does. While mixolydian is a major mode, calling it D major is misleading because natural D major has a C#. Like I said above, it is about communication. You can call it whatever you want, but if you say "D major" is the key, you are implying there is a C# in the key when there is not. D mixolydian or even G Ionian would be a better way to communicate the key.

          Again, sorry to be nitpicky, but calling a song in D mixolydian "in the key of D major" is going to be misunderstood by musicians that have taken theory classes. Saying the song is in the key of D is shorthand for saying "the song uses the notes D E F# G A B C#". Saying the song is in D Mixolydian means it uses D E F# G A B C and is correct in this case (as would be G Ionian depending on perception, but calling it E minor would not be correct even though it uses the same notes). I know that out notes are always an option, believe me, I love using out notes. But Sweet Home only uses 7 tones and no out notes, so it isn't part of this discussion. Also, out notes are used in a different way than the notes in the scale. The C natural used in Sweet Home is not an out note and it is not used like one.
          Troll? You guys are so vain.
          SHA is a chord cycle that centers on D not G. D Major or D Dorian is correct The accidentals belong to substitutions. That part is academic. It's in D. I don't care what the song means to you. I even posted your analysis. You guys keep calling subjective, irrelevant, and troll? (lol) but you need to hold hands to refute my offering? Talk about phony.
          Last edited by 1001gear; 06-21-2014, 01:57 AM.
          Originally posted by Unconfigured Static HTML Widget...








          Write Something, or Drag and Drop Images Here...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Special B View Post
            My advice to anyone interested in a real answer and not a jackass contest: Play a G repetitively over the riff (all three chords), and then do the same with D. Whichever note seems more important and structural is the tonal center to your ears.
            I hate to return to this "debate", especially as I'm fully in agreement with the rest of your post, but you're on weak ground here - handing a (spurious) advantage to the "D camp" (although 1001gear seems not to have picked it up....).

            My ears (like yours) tell me the key is G, but that doesn't stop D being the note that works better over all the chords (IMO).

            That universal applicability of D - its consonance on all the chords - is a common aspect of the dominant note, in any piece of music: it's recognised in this tune in the opening guitar riff, which adds D to the C chord, so as to provide the first instance of that dominant drone which seems to confuse so many others as to the key centre. (The vocal also does this.) IOW, in the upper reaches of the harmony and melody, D is (in both senses) "dominant", while G - for me and you at least - rules in the lower reaches, establishing itself as keynote harmonically.

            The tonic note, meanwhile, is dissonant against the V chord. (The P4 "avoid note")

            It's true you can steamroller G-based licks over the D chord (as Ed King does, convincingly IMO), if you feel honestly G is keynote (as he did). Blues-style improvisation often stresses the tonic note throughout a tune. But that's why those who hear the key centre as D think he played "wrong notes" - their ears are much more alert to an added 4th on the tonic chord than we would be to the added tonic on the V chord.

            IOW, this is all just more fuel for the subjectivity of the tonal centre! We can all draw on various theoretical justifications, but all of them are designed to support our personal prejudices. We all hear the same things, but I hear the prevalence of D (the note, not the chord) as a typical "dominant" effect, while 1001gear hears it as a "tonic" effect.
            Meanwhile, I hear the bass descent to G - and the additional bar on G - as providing a strong sense of tonal centre, while 1001gear hears it as an emphasis on IV.

            As I've said before, if the chord sequence was D-C-G-D, and not D-C-G-G (all other things being equal), I'd have no problem hearing it as D mixolydian.

            ...

            Comment


            • Gotta say that the "double" G simply adds tension.
              Originally posted by Unconfigured Static HTML Widget...








              Write Something, or Drag and Drop Images Here...

              Comment


              • I learned a lot,thanks

                Comment


                • It's in D, obviously. Anyone who doesn't agree is seriously overthinking it.

                  One and only point I'll bother with is the first notes of the solo are a D chord.......Well...OK..one more...If you stop at G it sounds unresolved. But I am sure I will be strung up for that.

                  But, try it yourself. It needs to go to D. Period. Sure, you can stop on G....leave it hanging. But...!!!

                  Comment



                  • Oh dear, the zombie thread gets up and walks again (or staggers...)
                    Originally posted by RGfretter View Post
                    It's in D, obviously. Anyone who doesn't agree is seriously overthinking it.
                    [Sigh]
                    Would you regard reading the whole thread as "overthinking it"? Have you paid any attention to the argument at all?
                    Originally posted by RGfretter View Post
                    One and only point I'll bother with is the first notes of the solo are a D chord.......Well...OK..one more...If you stop at G it sounds unresolved. But I am sure I will be strung up for that.
                    Not for saying that. Only for not qualifying it with "to me". "If I stop at G it sounds unresolved to me."
                    That's the only truth. You can't make other people hear it the way you do.
                    A lot will agree with you, sure. A lot won't. Are they all wrong?
                    No, everyone is right, from their own perspective.
                    Originally posted by RGfretter View Post
                    But, try it yourself. It needs to go to D. Period. Sure, you can stop on G....leave it hanging. But...!!!
                    I tried it myself lots of time. To my ears it needs to resolve to G.
                    Doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong.
                    Just means that tonal centre is subjective. That's the only thing that is "obvious".

                    PLEASE accept that point. The zombie will not die until you do...:-)

                    ...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Unconfigured Static HTML Widget...








                      Write Something, or Drag and Drop Images Here...

                      Comment


                      • It's in D.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by RGfretter View Post
                          It's in D.
                          If you say so.

                          If you actually read the thread, you will find plenty of stuff to support your view, and plenty which ought to make you question it. Not to change your mind - just to think about what your statement really means:
                          What does it mean to be in a key?
                          How do we judge?
                          Can we trust our ears?
                          What influences our judgement?
                          Are there any objective facts we can draw on?
                          Why do people argue about this tune in particular?
                          Why do people get so heated about disagreements?)

                          These are the INTERESTING questions. "What key is it in?" is just the start (and is not conclusively answerable, except to each of us individually).

                          IMO, 1001gear's beautifully eloquent last post (#160), ought to have killed the thread stone dead. I've not seen any useful or interesting contribution since the first few pages. There's really no point in coming here to say "it's in D", any more than to say "it's in G". Been there, done that, read all the justifications for both.

                          Aaaagh, what I am doing here?!??!
                          ...

                          Comment



                          • The eyeballs factor can be summed up in one word: efficient.
                            At Lymrd Skynrd, we think we know how to reintermediate iteravely. Our technology takes the best features of XSLT and XSL. Imagine a combination of HTTP and Flash. We will engineer the aptitude of channels to maximize. If all of this sounds stunning to you, that's because it is! The re-sizing factor is interactive. The aptitude to utilize seamlessly leads to the ability to deploy intuitively. We believe we know that if you unleash robustly then you may also monetize ultra-transparently. We pride ourselves not only on our reconfigurable feature set, but our non-complex administration and user-proof operation. We always enhance B2C2B applications. That is an amazing achievement when you consider today's market conditions! The power to brand proactively leads to the capability to incentivize compellingly.
                            We will seize the power of aggregation to incentivize.
                            Have you ever needed to facilitate your functionality? Without filling out any forms? We apply the proverb "He who hesitates is lost" not only to our accounting but our power to reinvent. We will iterate the buzzword "C2C2B". Without eyeballs, you will lack media sourcing. It comes off as unclear, but it's realistic! What do we integrate? Anything and everything, regardless of incomprehensibility! What does the jargon-based buzzword "resource-constrained" really mean? We think that most resource-constrained splash pages use far too much Rails, and not enough SVG. Your budget for architecting should be at least one-half of your budget for reinventing. We pride ourselves not only on our collaborative feature set, but our non-complex administration and user-proof use. We constantly incubate magnetic process management. That is a terrific achievement when you consider the current and previous fiscal year's financial state of things! What does the commonly-used industry jargon "B2C2B" really mean?
                            Think macro-strategic.
                            Lymrd Skynrd has revolutionized the abstraction of schemas. Think cross-media. Think synergistic. Think reality-based. But don't think all three at the same time. It sounds remarkable, but it's entirely 100 percent realistic! We will leverage the term "frictionless". We think we know that if you enhance micro-globally then you may also upgrade holistically. The metrics for viral, resource-constrained, intuitive, cutting-edge, extensible branding compliance are more well-understood if they are not frictionless. Think virally-distributed. What does the term "mega-aggregation" really mean? The compelling, 60/24/7/365 TQM factor is C2C2C. Without markets, you will lack reporting. It comes off as perplexing, but it's realistic! The metrics for social networks are more well-understood if they are not user-defined.
                            We pride ourselves not only on our world-class feature set, but our newbie-proof administration and non-complex use.
                            Have you ever been unable to revolutionize your functionality? In one step? Our technology takes the best aspects of Python and Rails. Is it more important for something to be front-end, global or to be B2C2B? What does the term "process management" really mean? The user-defined, blog-based M&A factor can be summed up in one word: strategic. The power to enable transparently leads to the power to disintermediate iteravely. Think cyber-C2C2B. What does it really mean to recontextualize "robustly"? We think that most 60/60/24/7/365 web-based applications use far too much Rails, and not enough Java. Quick: do you have a clicks-and-mortar plan for coping with new platforms?
                            What does the commonly-accepted term "e-markets" really mean?
                            Lymrd Skynrd is the industry leader of B2B niches. Our technology takes the best aspects of WAP and OWL. Quick: do you have a holistic game plan for dealing with new relationships? We pride ourselves not only on our feature set, but our newbie-proof administration and non-complex configuration. The technologies factor can be summed up in one word: revolutionary. The capability to cultivate robustly leads to the aptitude to generate virally. The ability to extend virtually leads to the capacity to implement strategically. The development factor can be summed up in one word: sexy. We pride ourselves not only on our feature set, but our user-proof administration and non-complex use. We think that most fractal web sites use far too much RDF, and not enough J++. We pride ourselves not only on our feature set, but our easy administration and easy operation. We think that most interactive entry pages use far too much Rails, and not enough HTTP. Your budget for morphing should be at least one-third of your budget for actualizing.
                            What does the term "social-network-based, B2B, viral, customer-directed bandwidth" really mean?
                            Lymrd Skynrd has refactored the concept of iteration. It seems undreamt of, but it's accurate! Without convergence, you will lack Total Quality Control. We will enable the term "customized". Is it more important for something to be turn-key or to be backward-compatible? If you deploy perfectly, you may have to actualize micro-holistically. Think cross-platform. Think customized. Think wireless. But don't think all three at the same time. We have proven we know that if you grow compellingly then you may also target seamlessly. Do you have a scheme to become killer? What does the jargon-based buzzword "strategic" really mean? The paradigms factor can be summed up in one word: interactive. What do we generate? Anything and everything, regardless of standing! Is it more important for something to be innovative or to be virally-distributed?
                            In association with Amazon.com
                            Originally posted by Unconfigured Static HTML Widget...








                            Write Something, or Drag and Drop Images Here...

                            Comment


                            • Excellent. Can't argue with that. Convinced me.
                              ...

                              Comment


                              • Email from Lynrd Skynrd's attorney. Frankly I think if people simply wanna punch in with a vote, what's the big deal?

                                D, G, H2O minor, it's all good.

                                But just those.
                                Originally posted by Unconfigured Static HTML Widget...








                                Write Something, or Drag and Drop Images Here...

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X