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christ, I suck at double bass

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  • #46
    Originally posted by WorshipMetallica
    hey Tim, in your article, you said to have the beaters striking just below the center, I have my beaters just above the center. Do you recommend me lowering the beaters below the center, if you do, then what is the reason for this?

    Also, I saw this instruction video of some guy, and he had a single pedal. He was doing doubles on the pedal. But he wasn't doing heel-toe I dont think. He did it real slow for the camera and it looked like he was hitting the pedal board with the ball of his foot, the "skip" to the top/font end of the board with his ball again really fast, and that's how he did his double. It wasn't heel-toe because he was playing heel up. What's the deal?


    Well, what size kick are you using?

    for me, since I'm using 28" Kicks, the mallet never touches the center of the drum anyway!
    I have my mallets lowered so that 1" of the mallet's shaft sticks out the bottom of the pedal where the mallet goes.
    Also, make sure that the mallet shafts are the same length.
    I used the Danmar mallets for years, and they used to come in all sorts of different lengths.(They had rotten quality control for awhile.)

    There are two reasons I suggest lowering the mallets:
    1.It sounds better hitting offcenter! LOL.
    Just like in a Tympani the center of the drum is somewhat of a "deadspot".

    2. When you are playing heel-toe, the mallet literally only moves about 1" from the head...after all, you can't expect to be flying, and have the mallet move it's regular stroke length. If I'm playing heel up, the mallet moves at least 3"-4".

    Having the mallet lower will alos help build up your strength, because you are using less leverage.
    I've seen some guys who have their mallets REALLY shortened, and while they could fly, they were getting even less volume out of the kicks.


    The guy you are talking about, the guy is using what is sometimes called a "toe slide", or "heel slide", their foot moves up on the pedal to catch the rebound.
    That is a modified version of the heel toe technique.

    Once you have the motion down, you can move your foot around the pedal and find the sweet spot.

    After awhile, you can play the heel toe without actually hitting the pedal with your heel, you can make the motion in the air, which I think might be what Tim Waterson is doing. I'm not sure, I haven't asked him....but you get more volume out of the motion.
    In true heel-Toe technique, where you literally hit the pedal with your heel for the rebound, the vlomue is lower than if playing regular heel-up.
    That's whay a lot of the Death Metal players wind up triggering.

    I have a gate and compressor on the kicks so that I can help squash the louder stuff a little, and raise the lower Heel-Toe volume a bit, but if you do it too much, it starts sounding really "funky", because the compressor destroys the dynamics of the kick too much.

    I was going to trigger my kicks, but my Bassplayer of the last 12 years was adamantly against it.
    I'm ordering a pair of Axis triggers (They mount on the Axis pedals) and I play to use these to control the "Key" functions of the noise gates, so that the only time the gate will open is when the kick drum is struck, and it will open becauase of the mallet hits the head, instead of based upon what the microphone "hears"...currently, the bass guitar opens the gates sometimes, so I'm trying to end that.


    Tim

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    • #47
      so what excactly am I supposed to do on the toe skip technique? I obviously can't do heel-toe, I wear size 16 shoes. I dont have the money to buy a long board either.

      So do you hit the middle of the pedal with your toes and then actually raise then a little bit up and then come back down and hit the end/front of the pedal with your ball/toes. Kind of like an arch? thanks
      remember: you’re a wreck, an accident.
      Forget the freak, your just nature.
      Keep the gun oiled, and the temple cleaned **************** snort,
      and blaspheme, let the heads cool, and the engine run.
      Because in the end, everything we do, is just everything we’ve done.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by WorshipMetallica
        so what excactly am I supposed to do on the toe skip technique? I obviously can't do heel-toe, I wear size 16 shoes. I dont have the money to buy a long board either.

        So do you hit the middle of the pedal with your toes and then actually raise then a little bit up and then come back down and hit the end/front of the pedal with your ball/toes. Kind of like an arch? thanks


        I've seen a video for it online.

        Hold on a second and I'll see if I can find it.


        Tim

        Comment


        • #49
          Here's the address for it.

          http://www.kettner.net/video/heel_toe.wmv

          This is not true "Heel-Toe", but it will achieve a similar result.




          Tim

          Comment


          • #50

            which I think might be what Tim Waterson is doing


            I think drumcanman uses lots of different techniques in his playing

            By the way, cool video. Really interesting. Do you know where to find some more of those video's?
            Sorry for my bad english

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Yokozuna


              I think drumcanman uses lots of different techniques in his playing

              By the way, cool video. Really interesting. Do you know where to find some more of those video's?


              When I say that's what I think Tim Waterson is doing, I'm speaking specifically of the Heel-Toe technique.


              That's the only video of that type that I know of online.
              I asked him (the guy who made that video) how he made it, but he never answered me. I am trying to put some money aside for a digital Video Camera and everything I need to be able to make smooth running videos online.

              I made one last year on how to do a one handed roll, but it was really "choppy"/jagged looking, and the video of my hand didn't match up with the audio....so it was a waste of time. After Yahoo griped enough times and finally suspended my account because of all the bandwidth use, I took it offline.


              Tim

              Comment


              • #52
                wow, that's a really cool video. It actually helped me out alot. I'll practice that until I can do it. thanks for the video. With correctly adjusted pedals and an assumption that the batter head should be tight, I think I can finally play fast double bass without working so hard. cool
                remember: you’re a wreck, an accident.
                Forget the freak, your just nature.
                Keep the gun oiled, and the temple cleaned **************** snort,
                and blaspheme, let the heads cool, and the engine run.
                Because in the end, everything we do, is just everything we’ve done.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by WorshipMetallica
                  wow, that's a really cool video. It actually helped me out alot. I'll practice that until I can do it. thanks for the video. With correctly adjusted pedals and an assumption that the batter head should be tight, I think I can finally play fast double bass without working so hard. cool


                  Pay close attention to how his foot is moving in that video, the heel goes down, and then the toe strikes the pedal, and his whole foot moves just exactly like he is walking.

                  When you get it going, it almost feels like you are walking on air!


                  Once you build the strength in the foot, and are able to do the motion without any problems, then you will be able to lower the tension of both the kicks and the springs of the pedals, you just have to have them tight while you are learning it.



                  Tim

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    alright, thanks
                    remember: you’re a wreck, an accident.
                    Forget the freak, your just nature.
                    Keep the gun oiled, and the temple cleaned **************** snort,
                    and blaspheme, let the heads cool, and the engine run.
                    Because in the end, everything we do, is just everything we’ve done.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I haven't read the whole pages, but on that video. Does the drummer have his spring tension of the pedals quite tight or very untight or?
                      Sorry for my bad english

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Yokozuna
                        I haven't read the whole pages, but on that video. Does the drummer have his spring tension of the pedals quite tight or very untight or?


                        Probably medium to tight.

                        Usually, once you learn this technique and have built the muscles in your legs, you have no use for a really loose pedal tension, because the mallet doesn't return fast enough.

                        The faster the mallet returns, the faster you can strike again.




                        Tim

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Hm, it's precisely the same here. I just put the tension that way the pedals react optimal to quick rolling (wel not REALLY quick, just 12beats/s heels-off) DB patterns.

                          Some days ago I tried hitting the pedals somewhere in the middle, that was a blast. It felt like I used 2 times less power for the same attacks. Before I (heels-off) used to hit them on the top. It's good enough for slow patterns, but when it got some quicker (like I said 12beats/s) I lost a lot volume. It really fun learning trying new techniques and stuff man.

                          But I tried that heel-toe technique on that video for playing doubles. But it's quite hard though my pedal settings are right. Is it a fact that technique is optimal done with shoes with a flat sole?
                          Sorry for my bad english

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            I like to do heel toe barefoot. Flat soled shoes are okay but not quite as easy. Shoes with a heel...very tough.
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                            • #59
                              i used to do toe heel barefoot too, i have small feet so it was easier. i stopped because for now i had to learn faster singles for recording and stuff, have it even, because the double strokes are a lot harder to make even and perfect.

                              TIM with the 28" kick...that is too huge for me to imagine, what practical use do you use it for, a certain type of music?
                              and how is the attack on a big kick like that, do you have to tune the head tighter to compensate?
                              kyle

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by the other kyle
                                i used to do toe heel barefoot too, i have small feet so it was easier. i stopped because for now i had to learn faster singles for recording and stuff, have it even, because the double strokes are a lot harder to make even and perfect.

                                TIM with the 28" kick...that is too huge for me to imagine, what practical use do you use it for, a certain type of music?
                                and how is the attack on a big kick like that, do you have to tune the head tighter to compensate?



                                Hi Kyle,

                                Well, I'm playing in three bands right now...one is just a Metal band, and I tune the kicks just past wrinkles for that...and let me tell you, that is a major workout....it's like kicking against a sail, but it sounds so awesome! No Heel-Toe action there. I do it, but it's not as fast as if the heads were tight since there's no real rebound from the heads....oh, and it sounds like a Canon going off. LOL!

                                For the other two bands I crank the kickheads very tight, and can heel-toe until my hearts content. One is a cover band, and one is a band that's moving for more of a modern Metal sound along the lines of Tool and System of a Down (HEY! I can't believe it! It's a NEW band that I actually like!)
                                For this prtoject, the 28" kicks are an advantage, because I can crank the kickheads down super tight, and still be in the pitch range of a 22" Kickdrum, even though the head is as tight as my snarehead.)
                                This was one of the factors in my getting the 28" Kikcs.....plus I'm 6'1" and feel kind of funny sitting behind little kickdrums...I just added all the options, and I will never drop down in kicksize again.
                                I truly love the 28" Kicks...sure it's a bit more to lug around, but let's face it...I have to have a Van to move my kit no matter what I do.
                                I'm waiting on my Pearl Rack to get in so I can Rack my entire kit....then I'll be a happy man.

                                I'm using Danwar Kickplates...just the regular Graphite ones. I bough the kind that are for a Double pedal, and I put one of these on each Kick, but I put them on going up and down, instead of across...that allows me to adjust the mallet height, and remain on an impact plate.

                                Then (I'm using Axis Sonic Hammers with the A Longboards) I superglued mousepad foam to each mallet, and then cut off the excess with an Olfa knife. This gives me an imitation "felt" mallet sound against the hard impact pads. With the tension that tight...the hard mallet against the hard surface of the graphite plate (No cloth on them for those who use the Danmar impact pads) was just TOO much Click.



                                Tim

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