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  • #31
    i don't know if it's just me but i always play with my heels down, it's what i started out learning to play with and it's harder for me to play heels up than heels down..
    My Drums

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Fafnir777


      Playing heel up allows you to get away with having weaker leg muscles. Because you are raising your foot, instead of keeping it down, the front of your leg doesn't get built up as well as the calf does.

      To be able to really "fly" on the double bass, you need to be able to play fairly fast in the heels down position. Once you can get going fast in heels down, you'll be able to go fast in the heel up position.


      Tim


      This is interesting to me, as my instructor is telling me the exact opposite (i.e. play heel up, use your leg as opposed to just your foot)

      Granted, this is for single pedal only and it may differ, but one of the things we have been working on is getting away from playing heel down, because it is slowing me down and causing undue fatigue. I watch my instructor play heel up and his foot is just a blur, he plays doubles and triples as fast as anyone I have heard on double bass. Well, I do not listen to death metal or anything so I am sure there are those that can go much faster with two pedals, but my point is I have been shown right before my very eyes the benefit to playing heel up.

      Not that I can do it yet, I still struggle with it. Sometimes I get "in the pocket" and I do alright, other times I wonder if my leg has been detatched from my friggen body.

      This makes me think I should experiment with both styles and see what works best for me.

      V.

      EDIT: Ack, I may have read you wrong, Fafnir, are you saying its better to get good at heel down, which will in turn improve playing heel up??
      Wave upon wave of demented avengers march cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.

      The show, no matter how retarded, must go on. This is why musicians drink so much, alcohol helps them cope with facts by enveloping their brains and auditory senses in a haze of thickly applied B.S.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by vanlatte


        This is interesting to me, as my instructor is telling me the exact opposite (i.e. play heel up, use your leg as opposed to just your foot)

        Granted, this is for single pedal only and it may differ, but one of the things we have been working on is getting away from playing heel down, because it is slowing me down and causing undue fatigue. I watch my instructor play heel up and his foot is just a blur, he plays doubles and triples as fast as anyone I have heard on double bass. Well, I do not listen to death metal or anything so I am sure there are those that can go much faster with two pedals, but my point is I have been shown right before my very eyes the benefit to playing heel up.

        Not that I can do it yet, I still struggle with it. Sometimes I get "in the pocket" and I do alright, other times I wonder if my leg has been detatched from my friggen body.

        This makes me think I should experiment with both styles and see what works best for me.

        V.

        EDIT: Ack, I may have read you wrong, Fafnir, are you saying its better to get good at heel down, which will in turn improve playing heel up??


        Your instructor seems like a pretty narrow minded dude. I play a single and I play heel down most of the time. Either way works but learning both well is probably gonna give you the most benefits.
        Wanna see a fast single pedal heel down player, check out this lesson. Go to the building bass drum strength digivent.
        http://www.digevent.com/events/consumer/music/drumbeat/archives.asp
        Modern Drunkard Magazine
        Slim Cessna's Auto Club

        Listen to Pine Box
        Listen to Munly

        "There ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk" -Tom Waits

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        • #34
          It'd be good to learn heel-down, you'll be all the faster when you decide to switch over to heel-up. Besides, there are some people who can play fast heel-down, it all depends on what you decide you want to do later. At first I could only play solid 16ths with a double pedal if I wanted them to sound at all in time, but now I can do it only heel-down cause that's what I've worked on. Heel-up sounds bad.
          http://www.paintballresource.org

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          • #35
            Don't learn heel down...you down play with your wrists stationary do you....why would you want to do it with your feet? Heel up minimizes the stress and increases speed beacuse your leg and foot is moving. Playing heel down would increase you ankle strength..so i guess that makes it a good exercise..but don't forget about your leg...your ankle is the speed and your leg is the power.

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            • #36
              Don't learn heel down? Sounds like bad advice. Ask any pro and they'll tell you to use what works. Better yet, they say get good a both. I think this has been beaten to death but I think it's widely accepted that heel down is just as effective as heel up. Also, comparing ankels to wrists is rather...odd.

              BTW Hamburger, I get more than enough power heel down. I broke the batter head on my kick a couple of weeks ago playing heel down. Go figure...


              Check out that link I posted. Dave Hall can play heel down with one foot better than some drummers I've seen with two feet.
              Modern Drunkard Magazine
              Slim Cessna's Auto Club

              Listen to Pine Box
              Listen to Munly

              "There ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk" -Tom Waits

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              • #37
                Originally posted by rumblebelly


                Your instructor seems like a pretty narrow minded dude. I play a single and I play heel down most of the time. Either way works but learning both well is probably gonna give you the most benefits.
                Wanna see a fast single pedal heel down player, check out this lesson. Go to the building bass drum strength digivent.
                http://www.digevent.com/events/consumer/music/drumbeat/archives.asp


                Well if you knew him you would see he is anything BUT narrow minded

                I am working on both, but with the emphasis on heel up. For me it seems to work better, I think he realized that so that is the metheod we are concentrating on now. For whatever reason, heel up, for me personally, just feels better, I have more control and speed then when I play heel down. So its my preference. Sometimes I play heel down. But when I need speed, I used my leg (heel up).

                Not to say that either one is right or wrong, everyone needs to experiment and find out what works best for them. Same argument could be made for traditional vs. matched grip.

                V.
                Wave upon wave of demented avengers march cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.

                The show, no matter how retarded, must go on. This is why musicians drink so much, alcohol helps them cope with facts by enveloping their brains and auditory senses in a haze of thickly applied B.S.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by vanlatte


                  Well if you knew him you would see he is anything BUT narrow minded

                  I am working on both, but with the emphasis on heel up. For me it seems to work better, I think he realized that so that is the metheod we are concentrating on now.

                  V.


                  Whew, I was beginning to wonder about your instructor because I didn't know the history of your situation. Good luck!
                  Modern Drunkard Magazine
                  Slim Cessna's Auto Club

                  Listen to Pine Box
                  Listen to Munly

                  "There ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk" -Tom Waits

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by rumblebelly


                    Whew, I was beginning to wonder about your instructor because I didn't know the history of your situation. Good luck!


                    Yea, I could see how it might be construed that way, but hes a great guy that gives me the freedom to explore the areas I want to, without letting me drift off into nothingness Thats a good trait to have in a teacher, too much in either direction (i.e. no disipline or too much) could make for a lot of wasted time.


                    Neither of us are the type to say "There is only one way to do this" about anything. Which gets us in to trouble sometimes but hey, us drummers ARE the coolest members of the band so we are expected to be a little off the wall

                    V.
                    Wave upon wave of demented avengers march cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.

                    The show, no matter how retarded, must go on. This is why musicians drink so much, alcohol helps them cope with facts by enveloping their brains and auditory senses in a haze of thickly applied B.S.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by vanlatte


                      This is interesting to me, as my instructor is telling me the exact opposite (i.e. play heel up, use your leg as opposed to just your foot)

                      Granted, this is for single pedal only and it may differ, but one of the things we have been working on is getting away from playing heel down, because it is slowing me down and causing undue fatigue. I watch my instructor play heel up and his foot is just a blur, he plays doubles and triples as fast as anyone I have heard on double bass. Well, I do not listen to death metal or anything so I am sure there are those that can go much faster with two pedals, but my point is I have been shown right before my very eyes the benefit to playing heel up.

                      Not that I can do it yet, I still struggle with it. Sometimes I get "in the pocket" and I do alright, other times I wonder if my leg has been detatched from my friggen body.

                      This makes me think I should experiment with both styles and see what works best for me.

                      V.

                      EDIT: Ack, I may have read you wrong, Fafnir, are you saying its better to get good at heel down, which will in turn improve playing heel up??



                      The reason I stress heel down, is that most guys can play heel up, but they can't play heel down.
                      I use Heel Up, Heel Down, and Heel-Toe.

                      Heel Up I use for AC/DC type of stuff...you know, when you want that "Stomp" happening.
                      I use Heel-Down for lower volume and general playing (It's a quicker response, and allows me to go into heel -toe technique without re-adjusting my feet.
                      I use the Heel-Toe technique for double-stroke rolls with my feet.

                      Over the last 30 years, drummers began playing heel up to get more volume out of the kickdrums (Amps and PA systems kept getting more powerful, but they still didn't mic the drums for a long time), and they have lost the heel down technique, as well as the heel toe technique.....so when somebody comes along who has incredible control, guys wonder why.
                      Think about all the drummers from the 60's & 70's who are/were total badasses on the kit. Most of them were from the era when guys were still learning heel-down, and heel-toe, which is actually a natural part of heel-down. Play heel down fast enough, and your heel will start kicking the pedal as well as your toes/ball of your foot.

                      So, the reason I promote heel down, is to build the muscles that are not built as well when playing heel up, you isolate the muscles in the front part of the leg when playing heel-down.


                      The way I see it, is that You want to be as well rounded in as many styles and techniques as you can be, not all of them can be used in every situation, so you use each technique where you can untilize it best.

                      The argument has been brought up lately about speed.
                      My use of the Heel-Toe technique Was never about being the fastest there is...Tim Waterson is several hundred strokes faster than me per minute (I last clocked it at a little over 1,200 strikes per minute....The Warped Tour is coming and friends are wanting me to go compete....I might just for the heck of it.)
                      The thing is, I learned this technique because I had been injured and needed a BETTER way to control my pedals at the speed at which I had been hurt. The fact that I am now faster than I had ever been, was a well-received surprise!

                      To make a long story short, I snapped a DW Footpedal's pedalboard in half playing heel up, and when my foot hit the concrete floor, I did enough damage to keep me away from the drumkit for several years.
                      It's not much fun to play if you are in pain.
                      I did everything that the "speedmetal Guru's" were telling me to do, which was:

                      1. loosen the pedal spring as much as it would go
                      2. loosen the head to wrinkles,
                      3.play heel up with your heel at the bottom of the pedal.



                      I will tell you right now, that I have a permanent injury that will be with me the rest of my life for following the above 3 pieces of "advice".


                      http://www.geocities.com/jaxmetal/drums/heel-toe.html

                      And if you're not familiar with Heel-Toe, above is a little article I wrote a couple of years ago. Also check out Tim Waterson's site.

                      http://www.drumcanman.com (I think this is what it is...I hadn't been over there in a while...I'm playing in 3 bands right now so I've been fairly busy.)

                      Hell, I need to put a link on that writing to his site.


                      Tim

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                      • #41
                        hey Tim, in your article, you said to have the beaters striking just below the center, I have my beaters just above the center. Do you recommend me lowering the beaters below the center, if you do, then what is the reason for this?

                        Also, I saw this instruction video of some guy, and he had a single pedal. He was doing doubles on the pedal. But he wasn't doing heel-toe I dont think. He did it real slow for the camera and it looked like he was hitting the pedal board with the ball of his foot, the "skip" to the top/font end of the board with his ball again really fast, and that's how he did his double. It wasn't heel-toe because he was playing heel up. What's the deal?
                        remember: you’re a wreck, an accident.
                        Forget the freak, your just nature.
                        Keep the gun oiled, and the temple cleaned **************** snort,
                        and blaspheme, let the heads cool, and the engine run.
                        Because in the end, everything we do, is just everything we’ve done.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Kingnome


                          I'll send you some Promark 747's if you like. Free to guitar-playing drummers !


                          *grin* can I have some? I've been playing drums 13 years and just started playing guitar last september!

                          So this is my first post on the drum forum - I came to hc to learn recording actually and I'm starting to branch out a bit...

                          These fora really kick ass, such a great way to learn tips and tricks about EVERYTHING.

                          Anyhow...



                          Jake

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                          • #43
                            Heels down or heels off, well. A lot of drummers use both.

                            I use only heels-off technique (but I only DB since 1 year). The biggest thing about playing DB is just practicing ur muscles. Just play fast doubles with ur right foot. After that, try the same song (or beat) with your left foot. Your left foot will be really slow in the beginning, lacking of a good technique too (if u played single pedal before). The first time I played my DB pedal (heels up) maybe 8 beats/second, my left foot couldn't handle hitting the bass 4 times/second with good volume and accurance. Just after 1 month I could play 8bps the right way with good accurance of my left foot and good lasting volume. After about some months I could play 10bps quite well. Now I almost play 12bps, just with the old standard heels-off technique. (I only talk about standard rolling bass patterns > )

                            So don't worry, just practice a lot. When u hear u can play more fast and accurate, ur feeling really well and after that u have enough motivation to practice more!

                            For playing DB on different techniques etc. drumcanman can tell u everything
                            Sorry for my bad english

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by WorshipMetallica
                              oh yeah and Kingnome, I don't need lessons, I already know how to 'do the math', I've been playing guitar for 5 years


                              That's cool....I didn't get that impression, but I seldom get the idea.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by eris23007
                                *grin* can I have some? I've been playing drums 13 years and just started playing guitar last september!


                                NO !! You can have some Fender California picks, though.

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