Harmony Central Forums
Announcement Announcement Module
Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Daily Question For Drummers Thread

Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse







X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts







  • Quote Originally Posted by kindbeats
    View Post

    I wasn't suggesting that we should determine which cymbals we want depending on how innovative we believe a particular company to be. I'm simply asking which company you find to be the most innovative or cutting edge overall.




    Right.



    And I'm saying I don't think of cymbal makers in that way.

    With drums and especially hardware, there's plenty of room for innovation, IMO.



    But cymbals?

    There's a reason that many manufacturers are using the exact same alloys and same/simlar manufacturing processes as they have been for a long time.
    <div class="signaturecontainer">For cripe's sake, somebody buy that kid a freaking DICTIONARY already!<br />
    <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/facepalm.gif" border="0" alt="" title="facepalm" class="inlineimg" /></div>

    Comment








    • Quote Originally Posted by kmart
      View Post

      Right.



      And I'm saying I don't think of cymbal makers in that way.

      With drums and especially hardware, there's plenty of room for innovation, IMO.



      But cymbals?

      There's a reason that many manufacturers are using the exact same alloys and same/simlar manufacturing processes as they have been for a long time.




      How can you view drum and hardware companies as innovative but not cymbal smiths and companies? That doesn't even make any sense. Drums have been made using mainly the same materials and measurements for years as well, so I hardly see how there is a difference here. If you can consider a drum or hardware company to be innovative for making slight alterations to designs that have been the norm for quite some time now, how can you not view a cymbal smith or company who has done something such as develop their own unique and patented alloy in the same light?



      Yes, there is a reason that many manufacturers are using the exact same alloys and same/similar manufacturing processes that they have been for a long time. It's because that's all that's been made available (give or take) for the past 100 years, hence that's all anyone really knows and it sells. The more that craftsmen are willing to step outside of the box and try new things, the more options and sound choices we will have as musicians, hence it will be better for everyone.



      I'll say this. Every time someone sees my set up, the first thing that they mention are my "crazy cymbals" and how they have never seen or heard any cymbals like them. Then they usually mention that they are surprised to see that such different and unique cymbals actually work in a typical group setting. You know what gets mentioned the least and quite often, not at all? My drum set's innovative feature, where each one of the shells actually split completely apart so that each drum can fit into one another ala a Russian Matryoshka doll. Go figure.
      www.kindbeatsdrums.com

      "Don't live in a world presented to you. Instead, become a creator of worlds."

      Comment








      • Quote Originally Posted by kindbeats
        View Post

        How can you view drum and hardware companies as innovative but not cymbal smiths and companies? That doesn't even make any sense.




        It makes perfect sense of you don't think in those terms in the first place.



        HOW can I not think of cymbal companies in the same manner as I may view drum & hardware companies?



        Easy. I just don't. Cymbals are not, in fact, the same thing as drums or drum hardware, so thinking about them in a different manner is pretty simple.



        Not sure why you're so hard after me about this; it's simply not a way I think about cymbals. They are metal plates tha make sounds when you hit them. I like some of those sounds better than others.

        Period.

        That's how I think about cymbals.





        Like I said...you and anybody else are welcome to think about them in any manner you see fit, and I certainly wouldn't advocate that you couldn't or shouldn't do so.



        You clearly have certain opinions on things like 'coolest' solos, etc. that I never put the same kind of thought into either.

        That's ok.
        <div class="signaturecontainer">For cripe's sake, somebody buy that kid a freaking DICTIONARY already!<br />
        <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/facepalm.gif" border="0" alt="" title="facepalm" class="inlineimg" /></div>

        Comment








        • Quote Originally Posted by kindbeats
          View Post

          You know what gets mentioned the least and quite often, not at all? My drum set's innovative feature, where each one of the shells actually split completely apart so that each drum can fit into one another ala a Russian Matryoshka doll. Go figure.




          This set me off into a child-like giggle fit. Well done, my friend, well done.



          I get Kmart's point, and I understand, but the fact of it is, he chose to ignore the question. The question was "What cymbal company do you find most innovative?"
          Music, music, I hear music

          Comment


          • When I was growing up, there was one brand of cymbals, Zildjian, that everyone knew was the best you could get. There were no beginner line Zildjians. There were other companies, bu everything was considered lower quality at the time. The only cymbals anyone thought to own was a pair of hihats, a ride, and at most 2 crashes. To this day, that is all that 90% of drummers are really interested in because that is what drives rock, country, and pop music. Drummers want the cymbals to be as pure sounding (un-metally) as they can get, with a nice high shimmer with little overtones.

            When drummers did add an extra cymbal it was a splash. The popularity of chinas did not really occur until the 70s. Zildjian again led the way, you could hear chinas being used in the songs we would listen to, and if you had the money or desire that would be an add to the set.

            Iin the mid to late 70s, Sabian and Paiste both came on the scene in a big way, mainly through endorsements, and they had quality product, again still basing it around the hihat, ride, and crash. The Paiste soundedge was a great innovation for it's time and a lot of drummers wanted that sound (if they could afford it),

            Now there are dozens of companies, all looking for their niche. Some are going after the standard quality sound, like Meinl. Others are going for something totally different, like Hammerax. R&D people have tried out lots of stuff through the years in the niche market (Sabian's Radia Line, Paiste's crotales/accent) and there is always something different to try, even colored cymbals went through a stage.

            Since you're question involved innovation, I still have to go with Zildjian. They have more money to spend on experimental stuff, including developing cheaper cymbal lines, and can afford to take losses putting things out there that don't sell well.

            I really like the Hammerax approach, pointing directly at that niche market of maybe 5% of drummers who want to try new sounds. If I had the money I would be in that game as well. I like Saluda, trying to fit the sound to exactly what the drummer wants, with customized cymbals. They have some great products.

            The question of most innovative though,,,got to go with the company with the most cymbal choices, that has to be Zildjian. Big props to Hammerax though because they are really "out there".
            <div class="signaturecontainer">sound clips:<br />
            <br />
            <a href="http://www.youtube.com/rdrummer322" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/rdrummer322</a></div>

            Comment








            • Quote Originally Posted by FitchFY
              View Post

              This set me off into a child-like giggle fit. Well done, my friend, well done.



              I get Kmart's point, and I understand, but the fact of it is, he chose to ignore the question. The question was "What cymbal company do you find most innovative?"




              How can you say I ignored the question?



              I clearly not only paid attention to it, I responded to it directly. I dont personally find ANY cymbal company innovative, because i dont look at them through the filter of innovation.

              Just because my answer doesn't fit into somebody's pre-conceived notion of what they expect to hear (choose just one response: A, B, C or D) doesn't mean I'm not answering the question, much less ignoring it.





              It's assumptive to think that everyone believes cymbal companies are innovative to one degree or another in the first place.

              Just as assumptive as asking "what's your favorite drum solo?" in fact.

              Some people just don't consider things in the same manner.



              Perhaps the better question would have been...

              "do you find any particular cymbal company to be innovative, and if so, why?"
              <div class="signaturecontainer">For cripe's sake, somebody buy that kid a freaking DICTIONARY already!<br />
              <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/facepalm.gif" border="0" alt="" title="facepalm" class="inlineimg" /></div>

              Comment








              • Quote Originally Posted by kmart
                View Post

                Perhaps the better question would have been...

                "do you find any particular cymbal company to be innovative, and if so, why?"




                Perhaps it would be better for you, but I mean, that's just not what the question was. I think you made some interesting observations, but maybe your goal was to spark some debate.









                Quote Originally Posted by kmart
                View Post

                It's assumptive to think that everyone believes cymbal companies are innovative to one degree or another in the first place.

                Just as assumptive as asking "what's your favorite drum solo?" in fact.




                THIS is some quality internetting. Seems like your goal is to PC this place to Hell, huh? Got a bug up your lug casing and don't want the rest of us to have any fun?
                Music, music, I hear music

                Comment








                • Quote Originally Posted by kmart
                  View Post

                  How can you say I ignored the question?



                  I clearly not only paid attention to it, I responded to it directly. I dont personally find ANY cymbal company innovative, because i dont look at them through the filter of innovation.

                  Just because my answer doesn't fit into somebody's pre-conceived notion of what they expect to hear (choose just one response: A, B, C or D) doesn't mean I'm not answering the question, much less ignoring it.





                  It's assumptive to think that everyone believes cymbal companies are innovative to one degree or another in the first place.

                  Just as assumptive as asking "what's your favorite drum solo?" in fact.

                  Some people just don't consider things in the same manner.



                  Perhaps the better question would have been...

                  "do you find any particular cymbal company to be innovative, and if so, why?"




                  Well, the fact is that I asked the question that I asked and not the question that you think I should have asked. You then answered said question and we then had a drum discussion where we got to hear your take on how you believe cymbal companies cannot be considered innovative. Mission accomplished. Hence, I fail to see how rewording my question to what you suggested would have been any better or yielded a different result. It simply would have been better for you, not necessarily everyone else.









                  Quote Originally Posted by FitchFY
                  View Post

                  Perhaps it would be better for you, but I mean, that's just not what the question was.




                  Exactly.
                  www.kindbeatsdrums.com

                  "Don't live in a world presented to you. Instead, become a creator of worlds."

                  Comment








                  • Quote Originally Posted by FitchFY
                    View Post

                    Perhaps it would be better for you, but I mean, that's just not what the question was. I think you made some interesting observations, but maybe your goal was to spark some debate.







                    THIS is some quality internetting. Seems like your goal is to PC this place to Hell, huh? Got a bug up your lug casing and don't want the rest of us to have any fun?






                    No. I answered the question as posed, and then was told (a) that my answer was apparently preposterous/inconceivable and (b) I didn't answer the question in the first place.



                    Both of which are completely horse**************** and far more likely to spark debate than my honest answer was.
                    <div class="signaturecontainer">For cripe's sake, somebody buy that kid a freaking DICTIONARY already!<br />
                    <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/facepalm.gif" border="0" alt="" title="facepalm" class="inlineimg" /></div>

                    Comment








                    • Quote Originally Posted by kindbeats
                      View Post

                      Well, the fact is that I asked the question that I asked and not the question that you think I should have asked. You then answered said question and we then had a drum discussion where we got to hear your take on how you believe cymbal companies cannot be considered innovative. Mission accomplished. Hence, I fail to see how rewording my question to what you suggested would have been any better or yielded a different result. It simply would have been better for you, not necessarily everyone else.







                      Exactly.




                      Yeah, that sounds about right.



                      Except, of course, for the whole part where you challenged my response ("That doesn't even make any sense.").



                      Again, just because my answer didn't fit into what you expected doesn't make it any less valid or appropriate a response. Are you looking for people to respond to and discuss the questions you post, or are you looking for some sort of justification for the way you think, where any responses that fall outside of what you think get challenged?





                      As for re-wording the question...fine. Continue to word your questions as you have been. Over time, I've found them to be kind of poorly worded, excessively assumptive, prone to making inductive leaps, and in general...kind of exclusionary in interest/application, unless you happen to be a very specific type of player in particular settings. If you're happy with the results you get, have at it. Maybe a little more thought as far as how you phrase the questions, thinking about who might be reading/answering would improve the level of discussion overall, maybe not. And don't take anything I say on this topic too seriously...I've only been designing questions for research purposes for a living for 15+ years.
                      <div class="signaturecontainer">For cripe's sake, somebody buy that kid a freaking DICTIONARY already!<br />
                      <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/facepalm.gif" border="0" alt="" title="facepalm" class="inlineimg" /></div>

                      Comment








                      • Quote Originally Posted by kmart
                        View Post

                        Just because my answer doesn't fit into somebody's pre-conceived notion of what they expect to hear (choose just one response: A, B, C or D) doesn't mean I'm not answering the question, much less ignoring it.




                        Just so you know, I agree with that and welcome answers like your's all the time. I don't even have a problem with anything you posted. I'm simply unable to personally understand it, but you're still welcome to that opinion.



                        As for the way my questions are phrased, I may not always word them perfectly but nobody ever seems to have a problem deciphering and answering them. You're the only one who ever has a problem with them.









                        Quote Originally Posted by kmart
                        View Post

                        Yeah, that sounds about right.



                        Except, of course, for the whole part where you challenged my response ("That doesn't even make any sense.").




                        I believe that would fall under "drum discussion" and the overall purpose of this thread. I didn't (and don't) think it made sense and was hoping you would end up shedding some more light on why you thought it did. That way, we all learn from each other, whether we agree with each other or not.









                        Quote Originally Posted by kmart
                        View Post

                        And don't take anything I say on this topic too seriously...I've only been designing questions for research purposes for a living for 15+ years.




                        You may be intelligent and accomplished in your field of work, but snide remarks like those aren't doing you any favors here. (Yes, we know. You don't care.)
                        www.kindbeatsdrums.com

                        "Don't live in a world presented to you. Instead, become a creator of worlds."

                        Comment








                        • Quote Originally Posted by kmart
                          View Post

                          As for re-wording the question...fine. Continue to word your questions as you have been. Over time, I've found them to be kind of poorly worded, excessively assumptive, prone to making inductive leaps, and in general...kind of exclusionary in interest/application, unless you happen to be a very specific type of player in particular settings.




                          Yeah! Kindbeats, you're WICKED exclusionary!!!!

                          *looks at page count of 139*
                          Music, music, I hear music

                          Comment


                          • Keep em coming Andrew! If you don't feel like answering no one has to,,it is interesting to hear different responses..no matter how the question is worded.
                            <div class="signaturecontainer">sound clips:<br />
                            <br />
                            <a href="http://www.youtube.com/rdrummer322" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/rdrummer322</a></div>

                            Comment








                            • Quote Originally Posted by kindbeats
                              View Post

                              Today's Question: Who do you consider to be today's most innovative cymbal company?




                              Of the cymbal makers that I've had experience with, I would have to say, Paiste and Sabian. They both seem to reach for new ideas more so than most of the other makers, who seem to rely more on traditional or predictable designs.
                              "If you can't SAY something with your instrument, try sellin' cars."-
                              The late, great Tony Williams

                              www.russleonardi.com
                              www.zephyrsound.com
                              — Sonor Designer Maple shell (heavy) 8 pc. for studio
                              — Premier Genista 7 pc. for live gigs
                              — Tama Silverstar "Metro" 4pc. for certain live gigs.
                              — Paiste, Bosphorus and Sabian cymbals, depending on what I'm doin'.
                              — Small collection of assorted snare drums to suit my mood.

                              Comment








                              • Quote Originally Posted by kindbeats
                                View Post

                                Just so you know, I agree with that and welcome answers like your's all the time. I don't even have a problem with anything you posted. I'm simply unable to personally understand it, but you're still welcome to that opinion.




                                Perhaps 'I don't/can't understand that' would have been more likely to yield discussion than 'That makes no sense' then.

                                Big difference between those word choices when nobody can hear your tone along with them. With the rest of your post, it certainly didn't come off like you were trying to have an ongoing discussion to me.









                                Quote Originally Posted by kindbeats
                                View Post

                                As for the way my questions are phrased, I may not always word them perfectly but nobody ever seems to have a problem deciphering and answering them. You're the only one who ever has a problem with them.




                                I just think they often come off as not very well thought out; sometimes its not necessarily clear what youre asking...and if your goal is to generate good conversation, maybe it would be helpful to be more clear.

                                Or maybe you think otherwise.









                                Quote Originally Posted by kindbeats
                                View Post

                                I believe that would fall under "drum discussion" and the overall purpose of this thread. I didn't (and don't) think it made sense and was hoping you would end up shedding some more light on why you thought it did. That way, we all learn from each other, whether we agree with each other or not.




                                I feel like i had pretty well explained myself, but again, specific words/phrasing in your inferred tone did not seem to point towards you wanting to discuss...rather that you decided to dismiss.









                                Quote Originally Posted by kindbeats
                                View Post

                                You may be intelligent and accomplished in your field of work, but snide remarks like those aren't doing you any favors here. (Yes, we know. You don't care.)




                                It was a pre-emptive comment to counter the inevitable responses from the peanut gallery challenging why my suggestions for questions should be considered more appropriate, etc.



                                And yeah, I'm not looking for any favors here in any case...occasional gear talk, etc. not looking for new besties online.
                                <div class="signaturecontainer">For cripe's sake, somebody buy that kid a freaking DICTIONARY already!<br />
                                <img src="http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/facepalm.gif" border="0" alt="" title="facepalm" class="inlineimg" /></div>

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X