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Why do people have or not have natural rhythm?


holygoalie

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As drummers here, I'm hoping you all have some natural rhythm...

 

How many of you have played with other musicians that just can't find the one when playing by themselves? lol For example - a guitarist having to do an intro on his own with no backing just can't play bars of 4 (assuming it's in 4), or singers that lose or gain a whole beat here or there when they're singing?

 

I've played with guys that can sing and play great with other guys, but as soon as they're alone, any sense of a time signature disappears. Just to be clear, this is about rhythm and naturally being able to find the one. This is not at all about meter.

 

Also curious, is anyone aware of any web sites that may discuss this?

 

Thanks!

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I hate saying it, but ANY of the musicians I've played with who had this issue were also on some sort of substance, be it alcohol, drugs, or... well, it's just alcohol or drugs. If you have enough musical experience to play with other musicians and can't find the 1, then you're probably high or drunk.

 

I know that's not always the case, but that's been my experience. Then again, I've had the good fortune to be involved with some great musicians over the years!

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I've been fortunate enough to have only played with one bass player who seemed to lack rhythm. Go figure that he played bass...

 

Only complaint I hear from people I play with is that the rhythm guitarist doesn't always stick to the same rhythm. To me that makes absolutely no difference, but the lead guitarist doesn't like it. So I guess that's a little bit off-topic... guitarist can keep constant time, but can't keep a constant rhythm!

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People that get into the drugs or booze seem to lose they're meter, but it still takes a whole lot or abuse to lose their natural rhythm.

 

I've also known of people turning a metronome on, even the kind that you can set a bell or accent on the one, and still completely lose the "one" of the bar. I sit there and listen and it boggles my mind how far away they get from the metronome! lol

 

I'm not sure if someone can be taught rhythm or is just born with it. I'd love to see if anyone has written any articles on this. When I've searched Google, all that comes up is the whole black vs. white debate which I don't buy into. I know a lot of whites with great rhythm and blacks without any.

 

Where does rhythm come from??? It seems you either have it or you don't.

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I used to know a guitarist who couldn't keep time by himself. He'd always push the beat. Whenever he was playing in the context of a group, though, no problem: he could keep time and groove no problem. Weird, expecially as he used to practice to a drum machine.

 

I've also known a few drummers that couldn't dance, but kept time no problem. I find that strange, too.

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Yep....just something that some people don't practice. It is taught skill. The people that have a great ability at it have just been able to focus and learn it better from an earlier age.

 

And I suspect it's like nearly every other skill out there....the older you get the slower you pick it up.

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You develop your skills where you focus your efforts.

Singers and guitarists often don't tend to focus on rhythm. I haven't met many drummers who could sing very well.

 

I'll say this, singers are probably the most sensitive to tempo. If a drummer is rushing or dragging the tempo, the singer will be the first to pick up on it.

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I have no "solid" answer, but it's a good question. Here's one person's answer:

 

Reverend Wright explains black and white hand clapping difference.

In the late eighties, I'd sometimes accompany my black girlfriend to her church on Sundays (I never heard anything negative towards whites and they never failed to make me feel welcome, by the way.).

 

During the music, I always noticed that I was the only one "on-beat." Well, thanks to Reverend Wright, I now see that my black brothers and sisters at the church weren't rhythmically "deficient;" they were just acting on their genetic inheritance- "different.

 

I also agree it can't be taught. Following a metronome or click will work once one gets used to using it, but it also can sound mechanical at times. Drugs and Booze do effect musician's rhythm. Our lead player sometimes takes off and I struggle to stay in the pocket with the band, and compensate for him. I talked to him just last Saturday night at a show about it. I asked if he could hear me and he said yes. I can then only attribute it to smoking weed, or he's just a white redneck. I like him don't get me wrong. But it can be frustrating at times.:confused:

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Not true. I'm a case in point.

 

When I first started taking lessons I had no concept of rhythm. 39 years later: I can funk, I can swing, I can do latin grooves, I can lay down the odd meters of prog, I can get heavy.... and do all that without speeding or dragging. It is definitely a learnable skill IF you want to learn it.

 

Some people also have natural feels for different kinds of rhythm.

You either have the funk or ya don't. Don't think it can really be taught no matter how much you work on it.

 

BTW, I got it at about age 17. After playing with a couple bands for a little while, suddenly I started listening and stopped struggling. So I contend that those who "lack rhythm" actually lack a willingness to listen.

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Following a metronome or click will work once one gets used to using it, but it also can sound mechanical at times.

 

 

The way to make metronomes groove is to run them at half the desired tempo then make the clicks 2 & 4 (assuming 4/4 time sig.) Takes a little while getting used to (and it's easy to let things slip so that clicks sync with 1), but it feels a lot more natural once you get the hang of it.

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It could also be a symptom of MS: http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/mssymptoms.html - scroll down to "Dysdiadochokinesia" under the symptom list.

 

A lady in a band that I occasionally play with has terrible time. Over the span of 12 years, it hasn't improved, and I know that it's not from lack of practice. She's very determined, and she has taken lessons. None of us could figure it out, so she researched and found this out about MS. It also answered some other concerns she had had about her well-being.

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I do think there's an element of natural rhythm, but it can be learned with

time, practice and patience. I mean, HAVEN'T YOU PEOPLE SEEN FOOTLOOSE!??!?!

 

 

That being said, IMO, good rhythm is all about NOT thinking, so if you have to think about it, it's still probably not gonna be "quite" there.

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I think what you mean is a natural feeling of "pulse," which is to say the ability to keep a steady tempo. (I take that from the examples you give.)

 

I've had a couple of students that way. Couldn't tap their foot in time while singing or tapping something along with it. Couldn't count out loud "1-2-3-4" while playing half notes. Most of the time I've been able to get them to play reasonably complex rhythms, but not feel where the "one" is. Weird.

 

I wish I knew a method to cure it. In over 30 years of teaching I've tried everything but never found one.

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The way to make metronomes groove is to run them at half the desired tempo then make the clicks 2 & 4 (assuming 4/4 time sig.) Takes a little while getting used to (and it's easy to let things slip so that clicks sync with 1), but it feels a lot more natural once you get the hang of it.

 

 

I've tried to work with a click, and I do get thrown off. But they do seem to be an accepted and expected tool today. I know full well a metronome is an excellant practicing tool, and I use one, plus that thing from Berkley someone posted a year or so ago. I believe that the groove in a song comes from the soul. If true muscianship and rhythm are a naturally occuring state of mind and being, which it has been for thousands of years, introducing a manmade mechanical timing device pulls some of it's soul away from the music IMO.

 

But I haven't worked with a click enough to get the hang of it. Something I should try and focus on in the near future if I'm to stay in the game at all I guess.

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I think some people have natural rhythm and some don't. Just like some people have perfect pitch and other's don't. Or some have natural ability to throw a football and others don't . That's not to say that someone who doesn't have natural ability can't learn it and be proficient. It's also not to say that someone with natural ability doesn't have to work at to be great. I fall in the un natural side I think. For a long time starting out and for years and years I got thrown out of band after band and lost audition after audition because of slowing down/speeding up.

 

I even considered quitting once. I've been working on it a lot since. I practice with a metronome a lot and it's gotten a lot better. I've even been complimented on my good time lately. At a blues jam at Dan's Electro Guitar Bar in Houston (there's some great blues jams in Houston) a guitar player who was watching my set said I was a "metronomic drummer" who was always right there and precise yet soulful. This was the best compliment I could get. So, it can be developed if don't have it naturally. I'm living proof.

 

Guitar players on the other hand. We have one song we do in our band where the guitar player counts it off and then comes in by himself at about 2/3 of the time he counted off every time. The bass player and I know now to come in at the proper tempo. It works because after the guitar intro, the guitar quits, the drums come in and then the bass. He says he pracitces with a metronome.

 

As far as why some people have natural rhythm and others don't, genes. Pick your parents wisely!

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In my experience with other players, a lot of what seems like "no sense of rhythm" is actually a lack of musical/structural discipline. They don't have the patience to accurately count rest. Ever notice they have more trouble with rhythms that have a lot of silence in them? It's kind of the same problem behind drummers that struggle with slow tempos.

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The key to the click is to embrace the discomfort. Because when you're doing it right you are indeed playing WITH the click, which means that you won't hear it. Your hit will fall at the same moment as the click sound and overwhelm it. Consequently, you hear no click.... when you're used to following the click, that is at first incredibly uncomfortable. It feels like you're hanging there in space or something.

 

If you're not already used to that, doing it in a recording session is virtually impossible.

 

I've tried to work with a click, and I do get thrown off. But they do seem to be an accepted and expected tool today. I know full well a metronome is an excellant practicing tool, and I use one, plus that thing from Berkley someone posted a year or so ago. I believe that the groove in a song comes from the soul. If true muscianship and rhythm are a naturally occuring state of mind and being, which it has been for thousands of years, introducing a manmade mechanical timing device pulls some of it's soul away from the music IMO.


But I haven't worked with a click enough to get the hang of it. Something I should try and focus on in the near future if I'm to stay in the game at all I guess.

 

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The key to the click is to
embrace the discomfort
. Because when you're doing it right you are indeed playing WITH the click, which means that
you won't hear it
. Your hit will fall at the same moment as the click sound and overwhelm it. Consequently, you hear no click.... when you're used to
following
the click, that is at first incredibly uncomfortable. It feels like you're hanging there in space or something.


If you're not already used to that, doing it in a recording session is virtually impossible
.

 

 

 

True that coyote. As I said, I need to just work with one more so I don't hear it.

Thanks

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I'll say this, singers are probably the most sensitive to tempo. If a drummer is rushing or dragging the tempo, the singer will be the first to pick up on it.

 

 

 

First person to complain about increasing tempo is usually the poor bassist trying to rock out eighth notes at 300bpm with one finger.

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I've played with many a musician who will "skip a beat" every now and then, even though their meter is good. Usually happens (for instance) when coming out of a chorus into a verse, or some other transition of that nature.

 

As stated elsewhere, it's probably an issue of them not paying attention.

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In my experience with other players, a lot of what seems like "no sense of rhythm" is actually a lack of musical/structural discipline. They don't have the patience to accurately count
rest
. Ever notice they have more trouble with rhythms that have a lot of silence in them? It's kind of the same problem behind drummers that struggle with slow tempos.

 

:thu:+1

I dunno, it's just my opinion but I dont see Timing and Rhythm as the same thing. Timing to me is straight forward, and rhythm is the feel in between. Its hard to describe.:facepalm:

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