Members Bottom Feeder Posted April 25, 2015 Members Share Posted April 25, 2015 greetings Earthlings!Playing bass live, most sound guys/girls go right to the DI box. So whats the point of lugging a beautiful, sexy bass cab to the gig? Just for stage volume??? As musicians we spend hours, days, weeks, years... tinkering, turning, tweaking, dreaming of the sound that makes us smile. And for what....just to go DI because its the easiest thing to do?Is the audience hearing the same thing I'm hearing on stage? Are they hearing that sweet amp and cab combination which makes US drool??? I don't know guys/gals?!? what are your thoughts? Am I missing something here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chip Stewart Posted April 25, 2015 Members Share Posted April 25, 2015 When I performed on a TV show last summer, the sound engineer mic'd my amp. It sounded great during the broadcast. Not all sound engineers go directly for the DI box. I do find when performing outside at festivals it is easier to use the line out from my amp instead of miking it because of the potential issues from wind. It may be the lazy approach, but we usually do not have that much time to set up and it is the most likely approach to be "successful". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FormerlyBassred Posted April 25, 2015 Members Share Posted April 25, 2015 It's not really 'lazy', per se. The frequency range of your bass amp is all the good lows, up to some crisp slappy highs. That frequency range is also represented by the PA. If you put a guitar preamp direct into the PA you'll have to cut a lot of the high's because the HF horns will make them brittle (especially with distorted sounds) so micing a guitar amp presents a 'here is what it should sound like in the best-possible situation' and then the sound guy can work with that... If your bass rig sounds good, it 'should' translate pretty well to the PA - are you unhappy with the actual tones that are coming out of the PA? If so, then you should do a couple of things. 1. ensure that your rig is set up to sound good both through your cab and into the PA - if you don't have any drastic EQ'ing going on it should be easy. I've plugged a MIM P bass into a DI straight and it came out sounding great... Figure out if you have a DI output that is select-able PRE or POST (puts the output to the XLR either before the preamp or after) . My main bass is an active Schecter Stiletto Studio - I know I can send the signal straight to the board and get 'my' sound to anyone 2. Get a good mic (take a little time to find the one that you love), a little stand and have it with you at every gig.. write it into your production information. I don't know of any soundguy who upon reading an input list fails to understand micing the bass amp if that is the performers preference. But you have to know why you want to have a mic on it, and it can't just be 'I don't spend all of my time tweaking my rig to give you a direct signal' because then you are telling sound guys how to do their job. You catch more flies with sugar, right!? If you explain that you have a certain sound dialed in and the mic (which you have on-hand) helps to get that specific sound to the audience. Many will opt to go with both, which is great for clean signal and specific flavor! If I could do both at every gig as a bass player I totally would! As a guitar player, I have an acoustic DI and two different guitar amps (Wet/dry setup - both are on all the time and I mute them as needed to combine all the different possible textures) that are to get mics, it is on our stage plot and our input list and no sound guy has ever asked if I really think I need 3 channels (or two different guitar amps)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted April 26, 2015 Members Share Posted April 26, 2015 It all depends on the rig but there's a whole list of reasons why many prefer to use a direct signal. You do need a very good PA and ideal stage sound to get the best from micing. Don't know about you but that's a rarity not a norm when you gig. Many newer bass amps have a preamp send for recording which is ideal for connecting to the PA. This usually allows you to dial up the best tones for the PA because the frequency responses of a vocal mixer are limited. When you mic a cab, you have two additional factors you deal with. One is the EQing effect a mic has and sound. The other is the frequency roll and boosting speakers produce. Many dynamic stage mics roll off lows below 100hz, right were the bass needs to be its strongest. Most PA's EQ aren't voiced for low end responses. A live Mixer is optimized to minimize feedback. If you have a stage mic dialed up for allot of bass, especially on a wooden stage, it can easily pick up people walking on stage through the mic stand and send the mic into a low frequency feedback loop. Going direct eliminates all of that hassle. Even if a mixer has a master graphic EQ, setting it up to get the best bass tones, may have detrimental effects on the vocals being too boomey. Add to that, Most bass speakers roll off at 4K even with a bright slap tone dialed up. When you add a mics response curve to the signal chain, you're lucky to get anything above 3K coming through which winds up having way too much, and the wrong resonance curves for the PA cabs to handle. You often need to add some compression or limiting to correct the mics uneven response. This is fine when you're recording or broadcasting as Chip mentioned, but live, it can make a low end feedback loop even worse plus add to the bleedover issues. Also, a mic is going to capture a good deal of the cabs resonance. Normal stage mics roll off allot of those fundamental lows from 40~100hz, and you wind up getting uneven note responses from a mic placed so close to a bass cab. If a mic could be placed several feet from a bass cab where the longer waves begin to fully develop, they would sound more even. Unfortunately this doesn't work out so well on a crowded stage. A bass cab is optimized for making the best bass tones possible. PA cabs are full ranged flat response in comparison. What a mic picks up close to a bass cab is not what your ears are hearing when you play. Even 10' from a bass cab the long waves are just beginning to fully form. The closed mic resonances is rarely a flat and often has stronger and weaker notes. If the PA cabs are larger and the mixer has say two parametric midrange bands, you can usually adjust the lower mid parametric filter between say 250~1Khz to even up the bass cabs resonances to get a flatter response from a miced bass. If the Mixer only has a single midrange its usually in the 3K range, above having any useful effect on the bass mic. Treble is usually much too high to be useful which leaves you with the bass EQ as the only functional knob on the mixers bass channel. if all you wants some boom you'll get it but it can sound awful in a full mix and winds up being attenuated down to the point where the bass sounds super thin. If the bass player works hard to contour his live sound, boosting the mids and highs so the PA sounds good, he winds up having a stage sound he doesn't like. Think of it this way. if you had two completely different cabs with two identical heads, would you set the EQ's on both heads the same or would you dial up what makes each cabs sound best? Most people would opt to do what makes the cabs sound best. By going direct this is exactly what you are doing. By splitting the signal you can dial up what sounds best for both amplifier systems independently and can kiss goodbye to fighting added coloration mics and cabs cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted April 26, 2015 Members Share Posted April 26, 2015 The problem with tossing a $25 DI on the floor near the bass amp and saying, "Just plug into that.", is that it doesn't capture the intended tone of the instrument. It doesn't take into account compression, eq, drive and, yes, speaker break up and other factors that all come after the bass itself. Imagine running sound for U2 and throwing a DI at The Edge and telling him to plug his guitar into that before going to his amps. Streets With No Name is pretty lame without a multi-tap delay. While an extreme example, sometimes it's not that far off with getting bass into FOH. Here's something else to try: pull up isolated bass tracks from almost any well known song that you happen to like. Does it sound like it was done plugging directly into the board with no additional processing? Probably not. So why would the average house engineer think that DI'ing a bass would cover all the bases? He's either lazy or under time constraints. To be fair 90% of the time, I DO like a clean, clear bass tone and I use basses with adequate EQ to get what I want. But 10% of the time, when I'm playing in groups that call for it, I have a grungy, nasty, edgy tone with a little delay. How do you intend to to that out front? So really the answer should be, as always, "It depends". My default configuration on my board has a bass mic, DI and amp DI, when I'm running for unknowns. A small drop snake to the bass amp location, three mic cords, a mic and short stand should give me all the options I need. For me personally I usually use just the amp DI. So my answer to the OP would be to always mic and DI the bass. Between the two of those you should be able to get the sound the player intends to send you into the FOH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FormerlyBassred Posted April 27, 2015 Members Share Posted April 27, 2015 WRGKMC, I'm not sure what systems you are referencing. I don't think most modern PA mixers have 'just one mid'... If you have a PA that is set up correctly, it will be easy to get a great bass sound. Micing the bass cab does add another open mic, which can open up things like stage noise and feedback, but it doesn't do anything that all the other mics don't already do, which means the sound guy knows how to handle it already... Direct or Mic, it should be easy to get a good sound with very little adjustment (seriously, I start with no EQ'ing at all and usually it sounds great, but should I find a frequency that gets out of control in a bad way I can tame it - EQ's tend to have 'sweepable' mid EQ's, which allow you to choose the frequency center that you are boosting or cutting, and a little goes a long way. ) While the cab will present some material that direct wont (assuming no need for effects, etc...) it is just like the speaker of a guitar amp adding texture, which the right mic will capture into the PA. 'Real' or 'Decent' PA's will be better at reproducing/reinforcing the low end, since subs should really only be handling 120Hz and/or lower, and have dedicated amps to make sure those frequencies are strong enough to fatten up and support the rest of the PA. Depending on the effects you use or the techniques you employ, there will be some higher frequency material present as well (Though the fundamental tone on an electric four strings 'E' string is 41Hz, you don't only get 41HZ from plucking that open string, you get tons of other related frequencies that make up the 'sound' of that open string. Actually, frequencies as high as 5-6kHZ cab be present and really help with clarity on bass guitar, even though those aren't 'Bass' frequencies...) trevcda, yes, using the amp DI you can capture the preamp tweaks and any effects you have running into the amp, though it may not translate as well. If you have a sound that you want to translate properly, figure out how to capture it and have what you need on-hand for shows. Sound guys are often not even given production information/show advances by (most) bands. You can't expect someone who has (in most cases) set up all of the PA, all of the cables, all of the mics and stands, etc... to have read your mind and have a vast selection of bass mics handy. DI and a mic is my favorite as a player and a sound guy, because I can get the clean and clear DI signal and mix in the texture/flavor from the onstage sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted April 27, 2015 Members Share Posted April 27, 2015 The kind of DI used here is a key item. Taking the signal from the Bass itself or the preamp is not the same as using a speaker emulated DI which taps the signal from the speaker jack. Unless the bass has a built in preamp, I wouldn't even use an instrument DI. A built in preamp DI can vary with results depending on the amp. I have 4 bass heads and the results you get from each are all over the place with the Ampeg being the best of the lot. A speaker jack DI's capture any settings, effects the bassist may dial up and just omits the speakers from the chain. I used one for 20 years and it produces wonderful results, as good if not better then a miced cab. Problem is you don't find them around much any more. They used to be a common tool used. They have to be built to match your amp wattage or have a variable attenuator added. Taking the signal from the amp output captures all the sound the amp produces including the power tubes and output transformer is its a tube amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mr Temporary Posted April 27, 2015 Members Share Posted April 27, 2015 For the last few gigs, I've been blessed to have the same very talented guy run the PA for us, so I've just used the amp direct out and opted to give him the signal before the preamp instead of after the preamp. That way I get a sound that works for us on stage, and trust him to make it all work together when it comes out of the PA. I know that's probably not what most people do, but it does have the added benefit that I've got a consistent "fail-over" where the sound is going to be the same whether it comes from the amp direct out or the SansAmp's direct out. Again, I have a lot of confidence with guy running the board, and he's constantly checking the whole room thanks to one of those iPad enabled mixers. For what it's worth, I've been to more than one show where the bassist plugs directly into a Countryman and sounded great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Klatuu Posted May 5, 2015 Members Share Posted May 5, 2015 Interesting topic and posts. I use a Line Six Basspod and have had to go direct from there to the board and use monitors to hear myself. That I don't care for. What I normally do is send the Basspod signal to the board from the DI out and plug my Fender Rumble 500 into the Amp Out. I can hear myself on stage just fine and the signal I am sending to the board allows the soundman to make it sound good.For those who use pedal boards, I don't see why they can't run a signal to the board from the last pedal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted May 5, 2015 Members Share Posted May 5, 2015 You can do that but the signal is pretty low level. When you send a long run over 50' its better to send a stronger signal at line level so you don't fight cable capacitance and wind up with mud at the other end. Some mixers can boost an instrument signal up enough but using a DI box after that last pedal to convert it to a low impedance balanced signal will yield a much stronger and higher quality signal vs high impedance. You can get a line level signal to send fairly long distance over a high impedance cable but it still degrades and collects noise. If its a short run you wont notice it but when you're running through say a 100" snake, you'll be sounding allot better running XLR balanced of a DI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Klatuu Posted May 5, 2015 Members Share Posted May 5, 2015 I agree. Just hadn't thought it through that much.My Basspod does just fine because the output signal is adustable and if it is all the way open, I can barely turn the amp on and through a 100' snake, it has sounded just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted May 5, 2015 Moderators Share Posted May 5, 2015 For the last few gigs, I've been blessed to have the same very talented guy run the PA for us, so I've just used the amp direct out and opted to give him the signal before the preamp instead of after the preamp. That way I get a sound that works for us on stage, and trust him to make it all work together when it comes out of the PA. I know that's probably not what most people do, but it does have the added benefit that I've got a consistent "fail-over" where the sound is going to be the same whether it comes from the amp direct out or the SansAmp's direct out. Again, I have a lot of confidence with guy running the board, and he's constantly checking the whole room thanks to one of those iPad enabled mixers. For what it's worth, I've been to more than one show where the bassist plugs directly into a Countryman and sounded great. What's a Countryman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted May 5, 2015 Members Share Posted May 5, 2015 What's a Countryman? A brand of microphones and DI boxes: http://www.countryman.com/. I'd guess a DI box based on context: http://www.countryman.com/products?cat=4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted May 6, 2015 Members Share Posted May 6, 2015 I usually use a simple transformer based DI. The best ones have Jensen transformers in them and can transmit the high frequency better without losses. This is best for instruments or voice that may need those high frequencies at the other end. Bass doesn't produce much above 3K so just about any DI will do fine. The principal of a DI is to step the voltage up and current down. It can also convert it to a balanced signal. This is the same principal used with high voltage towers. The high current is converted to high voltage. Wire resistance has less effect this way and it can be transmitted long distance. Its the high current that is consumed by wire resistance in the form of heat. When the signal makes it to its destination, its converted back to a lower voltage, higher current to do work, and in the case of a mixer or amplifier, operate transistors. Without this step up/step down process, all your signal gets eaten up by wire resistance and capacitance. Active boxes work find too. Its just the fact you have to worry about an extra AC outlet. A passive box usually does fine up to a couple of hundred feet or more. After that line amps are usually needed to boost the signal up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 greetings Earthlings! Playing bass live, most sound guys/girls go right to the DI box. So whats the point of lugging a beautiful, sexy bass cab to the gig? Just for stage volume??? As musicians we spend hours, days, weeks, years... tinkering, turning, tweaking, dreaming of the sound that makes us smile. And for what....just to go DI because its the easiest thing to do? Is the audience hearing the same thing I'm hearing on stage? Are they hearing that sweet amp and cab combination which makes US drool??? I don't know guys/gals?!? what are your thoughts? Am I missing something here? The reason a lot of live sound folks go with a direct box is to keep noise and bleed down. Bleed is already an issue with everything else you have to mic up, so if you can take something direct and go with one less mic on stage, there's definite advantages to doing so. In the studio, I usually prefer to go with both a mic or two and a direct feed - but I can control isolation there and don't have to worry about the guitar amp and the drummer's crash cymbal bleeding into the bass amp microphones as much as you would in a live situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted May 7, 2015 Members Share Posted May 7, 2015 At my last gig, the soundman didn't want to use a mic or a DI. He also asked me to try to approach "zero" on my volume knob. The man was a genius! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FreestyleIntruder Posted November 23, 2015 Members Share Posted November 23, 2015 DI all the way. Either from a DI box or the bass amp's own DI (assuming it is so equipped and is of reasonable quality) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.