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Recording bass


Mellott

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Hi everyone, wanted to ask a qq-

I have a Ricky 4003 that I'm DI-ing to record, through a UA 610 pre-amp, and then into my Mackie Onyx for the A/D converter. I've never been able to get a good level with the channel, except for pushing the gain up on the 610 until I can start to hear noise. Sitting facing away from the computer obviously helps so the passive pickups don't pass on interference, but it's been driving me nuts. So I researched and bought a San Amp to sit in front on my 610. I can get somewhat of a better signal with better signal to noise ratio, but it's still not great.

 

Does anyone have advice on what equipment they're using to DI where they have very little noise and a good strong signal?

 

Thanks

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I second that. Too many analog gain stages and the cumulative hiss from all those stages will become noticeable. The trick is to keep those gain stages minimized and avoid redundant amplification. One quality gain stage is going to sound more transparent and up front then than using several.

 

It can be heard in a recording too. The more gain stages the smaller and less three dimensional the recording will sound in a mix. Guitar can sound ok because you're used to hearing it distorted and damaged. Bass needs to match the kick in clarity and definition.

 

Even if the extra preamp stage is 1:1 its going to add transistor hiss just because you are placing more solid state devices between your instrument and the analog/digital converters

 

I'm not a big fan on using a mixer to record with either. You'd probably be better off getting a plain interface and not having the mixer EQ strips coloring the sound, adding noise and sucking tone. For vocals or guitar you can probably use a little EQing for the instruments, but for Bass you really want 100% of the tone to be recorded. Mixers aren't usually voiced for low frequencies either so you wind up with allot of mids and highs you don't need and not enough sub lows.

 

The Sans Amp (bass version) is OK. Its designed to feed a line level input and should target the bass frequencies well without adding extra noise of hiss very well.

 

I use a number of hardware Modeling preamps for bass. I have one little Kong Bassworks unit that has settings for different head and cab types and can get some very good amp emulations, especially the SVT settings which make it sound like a full 8X10 cab. Its got a built in compressor and 3 band EQ which I can adjust for different basses.

 

I do have a Sans amp clone for bass and guitar, Rack preamp/effects units, Compressors I all that kind of stuff too. I can even use my Ampeg Portaflex heads line out to track and it does a nice job producing good bass tones. I don't run more than one at a time though. I need to keep the chain short and preserve as much tone from the instrument possible. I can always use plugins later mixing to enhance the bass.

 

I can even plug the bass in direct at line level and get good bass tones recording and later boost and enhance them using a couple of plugins to add some compression and EQing. That's the good part about recording digital. The tracks noise floor is so low the bas track can be say -22db and still be boosted up in a mix with no ill effects.

 

This brings up another item. You may be attempting to boost the bass track up to match the high playback level of your previously recorded tracks. You may want to try this.

 

Turn your tracks/main playback levels in the DAW program Down - Turn your headphone or monitor levels Up.

 

When you turn the headphones up, it will make the bass tracking level higher which will require less bass signal boosting with preamps. Try using the mixer only to get your bass level and attempt to get your DAW meters in the green middle area between -20 ~ -6db max. Do not get the signal anywhere near peaking in the red with your hardest string pluck and you'll be in the safe zone. Digital is not like analog where you have to be close to peaking to sound its best. The instrument is going to sound the same even recorded at lower volumes.

 

After the track is recorded you can use a preamp/compressor plugin to boost the level up. (or you can break the rules and just normalize the track to around -6db and it should be in the ball park for mixing)

 

These can be tricky things to get used to especially if you're experienced using analog gear. Just keep in mind you can enhance most things mixing so long as they are noise free tracking. If you use too many gain stages it will add a false noise floor into the track. Some of this may be there depending on the quality of your analog gear, but you can usually filter that out using an EQ. Transistor hiss occurs up in the 5k to 20Khz regions. There is practically no bass note content up there and unless you're trying to get an upright bass finger tone happening, just about everything above 3K can be completely rolled off with no ill side effects.

 

Give it a shot and see what you get. I'd also think about a different interface that has no EQ or additional circuitry. Just a preamp and converters. Then if you use the sans amp for a little tonal shaping and boost it will be completely transparent. Use good cords too. A cheap cord can have high capacitance and poor shielding which leads to hum, reduce signal levels and coloration.

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I own 5 basses including a P bass and can get excellent recording tones from all of them. I've also recorded countless other bands and gotten the same kinds of results. Today its never been easier to get good results, but allot of those results come down to more then just the frequencies being captured. It involves the entire mix and the musical composition you want that bass to fit into.

 

You have to know how to mix well which involves using the plugins and tools in a daw. You can have a great bass track recorded and easily have it masked by other instruments in a mix if those instruments frequencies overlap the bass frequencies improperly. You can also have a bass sound great in a mix but when you solo the bass it may not sound as good as it does in that mix with the other instruments filling in. A Kick drum can have bass frequencies above or below the bass notes and if the two are properly balanced, one can sound thin without the other.

 

I used nothing but a P bass for a couple of decades recording. I hardly use it at all any more. I got board of the tone and found other bases could do things the P bass couldn't. A P bass has a string middle and low response and it can have its treble cranked up for some great slap tones as well. If I has the choice between a P bass and Ric however I'd choose the Ric for variety of tones. The thinner neck is a better choice for my hand as well.

 

The OP's problem is gain staging. He's using too many preamps in series which is making transistor hiss apparent. He also probably has a headphone level issue which is making him crank up his input too high. If he's playing to drum sample, he likely hasn't discovered those samples are playing back at mastered loudness levels. He has to crank those drums way down a good 10db or more, then turn up his headphones. This should allow him to record through the mixer only and get quiet signal quality. Then he can boost the bass track level up in the mix to match the drum samples without having allot of hiss instead of trying to record the bass at completed master gain levels which are highly compressed and limited to make the recording commercially acceptable.

 

This is the whole problem in a nut shell if you don't know your basics. Tracking levels can (and are supposed to sound) a good 10X lower to your ears. Its only when its mixed properly, then mastered that the recording levels come up to a normal commercial CD level. You actually need the recording level low so there's enough headroom for those mastering tools can work properly. A bass track should wind up being no more then -10db and can go as low as -15 to -20 and still sound great. If you're going to err, let it be with a bass part sounding a little too weak vs too strong. You have all kinds of tools that will make that weak bass part sound like a brick wall slamming you in the chest. If you haven't learned this then you haven't spent enough time using the basic recording tools yet.

 

With a good headphone amp and decent headphones with a medium SPL level the bass should be deafening at a lower recording level. If you use some cheap consumer quality headphones that cant handle the bass response well, then it would be a good reason why the OP is attempting to gain that bass up to sound good when he tracks. May headphones have hyped bass response and drums sound way too loud and trying to get bass to compete with that hyped response will result in bad results every time.

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The Ric --> 2-610 combination should work. Check gain/level and the mic/line switch on the 2-610. Also check your cord, check the gain for that channel on the onyx... it's probably a little thing somewhere. Like WRGKMC said above, It's about gain staging. Use one preamp, be methodical, and start from the beginning of the signal path.

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I have all kinds of stuff for recording. Rack preamps, modeling effects units, a sans amp and Morley JD1 plus a ton of others including recording from a bass amp in the studio miced or direct.

 

You'd laugh at what I use to record bass most of the time. I bought a cheap little Korg Bassworks on EBay for $15 and I probably use it 80% of the time recording solo. Finding the non standard 3V wall wart was actually a bit of a challenge but its better then wasting batteries

 

http://en.audiofanzine.com/portable-guitar-amp-simulator/korg/Ampworks-Bass/user_reviews/

 

First off its quiet so there isn't any hiss in the background noise of any kind. It has low distortion when you crank it up which is another important item. Its got a simple compressor, Bass Mid and Treble and one preamp volume level all voiced for bass. On the back its got a line level and instrument level switch so you can run it in front of an amp or record direct. The effects are pretty cheesy. I wouldn't use them in any case so I just turn those off. If I need something like chorus on bass I'll add it with high quality plugins mixing.

 

The best part is it has 11 amp and 10 cab models that nail the tones pretty darn good. When I select the 8X10" cab and say a classic tube head it actually sounds like an SVT cab in the mix. The Silver sounds like Fender stuff, The UK sounds like Marshall stuff, etc.

 

I'm sure you can buy a better unit at much higher prices that will do the same things. This ones just super simple to run. No building patches or scrolling through endless settings to find the one that's just right. Its all just dials and two simple one touch memory settings.

 

The tones you can get can easily knocks your socks off. I'll track the bass with this and 9 times out of 10 the bass track needs no additional tweaks, No EQ, no Compression, none of that so the track you record isn't stripped of its quality running a bunch of plugin algorithms. What you track is what you get.

 

Of course some songs need a little additional tweaking depending on the musical composition. Some times a little 800 Hz to get a little more finger tone Or maybe a preamp emulator to make the bass a bit more solid. Much of this has to so with the drum tracks. If the Kick is deep or thin you may need to tweak the bass as needed, but for the most part I just dial it up before I hit record. Its really no different then what you do playing live.

 

As I said I can do practically the same thing with other gear, but this unit is so simple, I don't have to work nearly as hard as I do with the other units to get things right. The sweet spot is right there with everything set for 12:00 and you can just emphasize things depending on the bass and its pickups to get the best tones.

 

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i use a solo 610 and a sansamp together... but not into each other

i record two separate tracks and mix them together. Both the solo 610 and the sansamp have a direct out, so it's easy to do

like this... except using the 610 instead of the reddi

 

8G1kawKA_Jo

 

i'm not sure why your having level issues though... sounds like something at the onyx end

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