string tensions

[Franq]

Hi, guys. I have a question about string tensions. Now for all I know, this may or may not make any difference when you're actually playing a bass. But I was just noticing on the d'addario string tension guide (it's on their website) that for a given set of strings the tensions of the different strings when strung to pitch are not all the same. For example, on the short-scale pro-steels (which come in exactly one size) the E string has a tension of 26.8 when strung to pitch, whereas the A string has a tension of 31.5, and the D string has yet another tension etc. Now you would think (or at least I would think) that you would want the string tensions to be roughly in the same place because the tension helps determine some aspects of the playability such as how hard you can hit a string before buzzing, etc. You would want each string to play roughly the same way, right? It seems to me that if they wanted to they could easily calibrate the string sizes so that for a given set of strings each string would have exactly the same tension as the others when they are all strung to their respective pitches, so does anyone know why they wouldn't do it that way? Or am I somehow just misunderstanding the d'addario string tension guide in some way? Just curious. Thanks.

[WRGKMC]

You're right. Many sets of strings aren't well balanced. Its one reason I don't use D'Addario guitar strings. The gauges I used have a very uneven tension range.

 

Strings should get more tension towards the bass end progressively. I've never seen a set that is dead even and you probably wouldn't want to play a bass with the tensions dead even. But your wouldn't want the D string to have less tension then the G for example.

 

If the strings jump maybe a few pounds per string going from light to heavy you'll likely have a good feel to the neck once the strings are properly intonated. The pounds pull is based on the size of the core string. The wraps don't add tension they just add inertia and deeper tones.

 

There are some sets I'd suggest trying. Not sure what gauge you use but I've found a few sets that have very even tension that makes for better playing.

 

Labella Beep Talkin bass strings, Boomers, Sfarzo S.F.T. and SIT are the best tensioned strings overall I've used. I do use D'Addario but They haven't been polishing the strings lately and they chew my fingers up. I even got metal splinters in my fingers recently so they're slipping on quality control. Their tension and tone aren't as bad as some others but they need to fix their quality control issues.

 

There are some I wont even buy. DR strings, Roto sound, are two that come to mind. The DR strings use thin cores so the strings flab out and the Roto's go dead in a week. Its too bad because they used to be the #1 bass string. Thay must have cheapened their formula to save money because they go dead so fast thay aren't worth buying.

[DeepEnd]

What you're describing is actually fairly common. I have a set of Ernie Ball flats on my bass right now and the E has noticeably less tension than the rest of the set. If you're interested, d'Addario makes "balanced tension" sets that have approximately the same tension across the board: http://www.daddario.com/Balanced_Tension.page. If you know what you're doing, juststrings.com sells single bass strings from various manufacturers: http://www.juststrings.com/bassguitarsinglestrings.html. You can assemble a set to your individual liking.

[lug]

http://www.circlekstrings.com/store/

 

Run by a guy who used to frequent this place who really knows his {censored}. Great strings, I have a set on my G&L.

[DeepEnd]

http://www.circlekstrings.com/store/

 

Run by a guy who used to frequent this place who really knows his ****************. Great strings, I have a set on my G&L.

The gauges threw me at first. I'm assuming they're metric (i.e., in cm)?

[WRGKMC]

^^ They look inch to me, they start off at .008 and work all the way up to bass strings.

 

Its easy to take a string gauge calculator to find the tensions, but once you're into the wrapped strings, unless you know the core size, that calculator is useless. String material is another key item. It doesn't matter if the tensions good if the strings don't sound good or stretch and don't stay in tune.

 

I will try and give these a try though. I'm always game for giving a brand at least one shot. If you don't take chances you never know first hand if something's good or not.

[DeepEnd]

^^ They look inch to me' date=' they start off at .008 and work all the way up to bass strings. . . .[/quote']

Nope. The gauges get smaller from left to right:

 

.045 4 String 34 to 35 Scale Length Balanced

.045 .031 .020 .014

0.014 inches is only a tad larger than the B string on my Strat copy. Frankly, I'm not sure what the units are. If there's an unnecessary zero after the decimal, then 0.14 cm is 0.055 inches, about the size of a D bass string but 0.45 cm is 0.177 inches, 'way heavier than the B in a 5-sting set.

[isaac42]

WRGKMC, I think you're wrong about windings and string tension. The core size has no direct effect on tension. The things that matter for a given pitch are length, tension and mass per unit length. Core size affects the mass, but no more than windings do.

 

I've noticed over the years that, while scale lengths are the same (unless you have fanned frets), the diameter, which is directly proportional to the mass, is lower than one would expect on the lower strings. That would raise the pitch, so the tension must be lowered to compensate.

 

Some years ago, I read on some string site that they made a set with equal tension, and it sounded terrible. Personally, I think that's BS, but that's what they said. I don't see why that would be. After all, light gauge strings sound good, and so do medium gauge strings, so an even-tension set ought to sound good, too.

 

However, I think there's a reason for uneven tension. Heavier strings feel stiffer, just as heavier gauge wire is stiffer than lighter gauge wire. So having lighter tension on the heavier strings ought to make the strings feel more similar than equal-tension sets would. I suspect that this is why string companies generally sell sets that are lighter on the low strings than equal tension would demand.

[isaac42]

Nope. The gauges get smaller from left to right:

 

 

0.014 inches is only a tad larger than the B string on my Strat copy. Frankly, I'm not sure what the units are. If there's an unnecessary zero after the decimal, then 0.14 cm is 0.055 inches, about the size of a D bass string but 0.45 cm is 0.177 inches, 'way heavier than the B in a 5-sting set.

 

OTOH, 0.177 inches might be just right for a 20Hz low E string.

[DeepEnd]

OTOH, 0.177 inches might be just right for a 20Hz low E string.

Could be but I was under the impression these were normal 4-string sets. A 20 Hz E string (actually a 20.6 Hz E string) would be part of a set tuned an octave lower than normal. I've heard Reggie Wooten does something similar but we're talking about a "normal" bass (at least I am). Not to mention trying to find an amp and cab(s) to do it justice. They do offer normal looking gauges if you go a few pages so maybe the ones on the first page are for octaves on an 8-string? Sheesh, you'd think they'd put the strings people are actually likely to use on the first page or two. OTOH, on page 10 there are sets that have a 0.254. If that's inches it's over a quarter of an inch in diameter; if it's cm it's about 0.1 inches. But then the 0.014 string would be about 0.0055 inches, which is thinner than the high E on even a very light set of guitar strings. I, for one, am confused.

[isaac42]

Well, Circle K strings is run by Knucklehead, who also makes the Quake basses. Quakes have a 39" scale, and are available tuned to low E (which, as you say, is 20.6Hz). My impression is that they sell sets that can be used for anything from a 20.6Hz low E to a piccolo bass set with an 82.4Hz E. 0.045 would be fine for that, so maybe that's what we're looking at with the 0.045-0.031-0.030-0.014 set.

[lug]

They also use a unique steel/nickel hybrid material.

[DeepEnd]

Well' date=' Circle K strings is run by Knucklehead, who also makes the Quake basses. Quakes have a 39" scale, and are available tuned to low E (which, as you say, is 20.6Hz). My impression is that they sell sets that can be used for anything from a 20.6Hz low E to a piccolo bass set with an 82.4Hz E. 0.045 would be fine for that, so maybe that's what we're looking at with the 0.045-0.031-0.030-0.014 set.[/quote']

Okay, that actually makes sense. I've tried Knucklehead strings, which I'm assuming are part of the same family. I have a set on an Epi acoustic guitar I originally bought for our daughter and, while they're budget priced, they seem to be decent quality. As for Quake Basses, they're impressive looking instruments but I've never been in the same building with one. 'Way beyond my pay grade.

[WRGKMC]

WRGKMC, I think you're wrong about windings and string tension. The core size has no direct effect on tension. The things that matter for a given pitch are length, tension and mass per unit length. Core size affects the mass, but no more than windings do.

 

Sorry but you're wrong on that. You can find string tension calculators on line that will confirm that as well.

 

According to the conversations I've had with SIT core size definitely affects the string tension. I had issues with their guitar strings and suspected the A strings were swapped with heavier gauged D strings. I was given the owners number by the vendor when I suspected I had substitute strings in the pack. The owner had me check the core with a micrometer and the cores were definitely thinner then they should have been which made the strings too flexible and impossible to intonate.

 

The D strings had the same outer dimensions but the core wire was smaller and allowed optimal tension tuned 5 frets higher.

I had the saddle maxed out and the string was still a semitone flat at the 12th fret. The core is responsible for the strings stiffness tuned to pitch. The wraps make that pitch and its overtones stable by giving the string the proper mass/inertia for that frequency.

 

They even make large core strings for low tuning which allows similar tension and proper tension at lower pitches. Without those larger cores the strings would bend sharp at the frets with a light touch in comparison to the other strings.

 

The core wire is the only metal that is under tension from bridge to nut. The wraps are wound around the string and in fact would unwrap if they had end to end pull on them. The core wire is what's wound around the ball end and often tapers down to the core wire at the tuners on most bass strings.

 

The wraps do add mass to the strings but not tension end to end. Mass slows the movement and adds body to the sound. I'm sure there's a balance between the wraps and the size of the core wire that gets the proper tone vs. feel for a particular scale length.

 

My whole thing is I like having the same amount of flexibility per string tuned to normal pitch. On a short scale I may even like having the low E a bit stiffer because normal strings sets on a short scale fart out easily, especially the low E. Using normal strings on a short scale is allot like tuning a long scale down to D or C tuning.

 

Finding a set that has good tension so you can play notes at high speed with fingers is much more difficult because you don't have many options buying 30" scaled strings. You can install long scale strings which I have done many times but you take a chance on snapping the core wire when you wind them because its the outside wraps pilling on the inside core. Often times the wraps begin to unwind and loosen when you do this which makes for string buzz and dead tones.

 

If you did have to use long scale strings the softer metals are better then stiff hard metals that fracture easily. Getting D'Addarios for example to wind without cracking at the 90 degree bend at the tuner is a 50/50 shot at success. I have also tried dipping then trimmed end in crazy glue and had better success in not having the string break. I usually leave some extra length so I have a second chance at it when it does break. Unwinding the outer wraps to get down to the core wires can help too but again the CA can arrest the wraps from continuing to unwind like that fuzzy green or red thread they wrap on the ends,

 

The strings you like on a long scale are going to feel allot more flexible on a short scale. Going up a gauge (if you can get them through the holes in the tuners) is about a match in tension between between the two types of bases.

[Lee Knight]

Cool thread! This is something I know nothing about but only through experience. I always like the tension feel of GHS boomers. I'm constantly trying different sets to get the sound and tension right but never thought to look and see if tension information was available. Great info, guys.

[isaac42]

The pitch of a string of a given length is determined by tension and mass density, which is mass per unit length. It is a function of the speed of vibration in the string. The equation is v = T/µ, where v is the speed of the wave, T is tension and µ is mass density. Nowhere in that equation is core size. If core size has an effect, it is in how it affects mass density.

 

http://www.bsharp.org/physics/guitar

[WRGKMC]

^^^^ You're leaving out other major key factors. In plain unwrapped strings made of one type of metal maybe.

 

 

D'Addario - String Tension 101

 

String tension is determined by vibrating length, mass, and pitch. The string diameter alone does not determine a string’s tension. By using different raw materials (nickelplated steel or phosphor bronze, etc.) or by varying the ratio between the core and the wrap wire, two strings with the same diameter, tuned to the same pitch, could have two different tensions.

 

http://www.daddario.com/DAstringtensionguide.Page?sid=d96342ee-a2d5-4035-b907-f2fb869a007b

 

 

 

Martin - Core wire Core wire is the heart of any guitar string. On higher strings (B & E), the core wire is the string itself. On lower strings (E, A, D, G), a thinner wrap wire is wound around the core, for tone and durability. A thicker core will mean a stronger, stiffer string (like Martin SP or SP Lifespans), whereas a thinner core will be more bendable, delicate string (such as Martin FX strings). Most core wire is composed of steel.

 

 

"The tension of a musical string can be adjusted by simply combining different core and wrap wires. This can also be varied by using different tensile strength for the core and wrap wires. As an example, an electric guitar gauge of .042 can be made by using a .016 core and a .013 wrap wire. Another way of building that string could be with a .019 core and a .0115 wrap. The gauge would be the same— .042—but the string with the .019 core would be much Stiffer". http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Steel_Strings_101

 

 

It is perfectly possible for the string manufacturers to assemble equal tension sets for standard tuning, or for any of the common open and alternate tunings. It is even possible to buy off-the-shelf, standard gauge, single strings to make up a set that comes within a few pounds of equal tension, without resorting to custom gauges. So why do the string manufacturers compose their string sets with such uneven tensions? Since string manufactures aren’t prepared to reveal their reasoning we can only make an informed guess.

 

Bigger gauge strings are louder, so it seems that the bigger gauges (core plus wrap) for the g, d, A and E strings compensate for the effect of the small cores and are necessary to obtain a volume balance across all six strings. This seems considered to be more important than an even string tension across the set. Since volume balance will depend to some extent on each particular guitar, presumably string set tensions are chosen as a best guess compromise to suit the ‘average’ guitar. http://www.acousticmasters.com/AcousticMasters_Strings1.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[isaac42]

You seem to have some trouble interpreting what you're posting. In the passage you bolded, do you see where it's talking about diameter? Now note that diameter is not a factor in the actual physics equation. Now look again at the passage you bolded and note that it says that for strings of the same diameter, the ratio between the core size and the windings may (not will) affect the tension. That's because, as I said earlier, it may affect the mass density. Strings with different core sizes, but having the same mass density, will have the same tension when tuned to the same pitch. Core size does not directly affect tension.

 

Here's an other physics site explaining it. Maybe this one will make more sense to you.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/waves/string.html

[WRGKMC]

Do you mean "two strings with the same diameter, tuned to the same pitch, could have two different tensions"

 

They worded it that way because the materials used are a big factor. Denser materials usually weigh more which increases inertia.

If you have the same core wire size and type with different materials wrapped around the core it will not only affect the tone but it will likely require more tension on the core of heavy wraps to match the pitch of a lighter materials that have less inertia due to the string weight.

 

I believe what you are arguing is this. T = (UW x (2 x L x F)2) / 386.4

Where T is tension in lbs (strictly speaking, Pounds are a measure of mass and not tension. String tensions given in pounds can be converted to Newton’s by multiplying by 4.45), UW is unit weight of the string in lbs per linear inch, L is vibrating length in inches and F is the fundamental vibrating frequency in Hertz.

To make use of this formula you need to know one key property of a string; it’s Unit Weight. This can be arrived at using two different methods, either by accurately weighing a known length of string or by measuring the diameters of the core and wrap wire (if the string has one) and calculating unit weight using the known densities of the materials

The harder the wrap wire material used, the brighter the tone of the finished string. Stainless steel wound strings, normally only used on electric instruments, are very bright and the availability and use of bright sounding, stainless steel strings on the electric bass has lead to the development of a range of new bass techniques and the adoption of the bass guitar as a solo instrument. The shape of the winding also has a tonal effect and a round wrap wire produces a bright string, while tape or half-round wound strings have a warmer sound. This is because the round wire winding, like a spring, flexes quite easily and doesn't damp the higher frequencies. The tape winding is stiffer.

 

However I was strictly talking about the same materials being used with different core and wrap sizes. If the overall diameter is the same and the core size if larger in one string vs. another, its going to have more tension and be less flexible.

 

You aren't going to find much information on this because its one of those trade secrets manufacturers don't share with their competitors or the general public.

 

In this article if you read it, it says, http://www.acousticmasters.com/AcousticMasters_Strings1.htm

 

~~If you ask a string manufacturer what criteria they use in designing strings and string sets you are unlikely to receive a useful answer (I know because I asked them all!). Answers you do get range from “we don’t know, we just make them to the formula set years ago” to “we could tell you, but we would have to kill you” or “we make them pretty much like the other string companies because it’s what the customers expect”.

 

Wound string wrap to core ratio

There is one ‘hidden’ parameter which string companies do have the opportunity to vary and which may be the biggest difference between otherwise similar string sets and that is the ratio of wrap wire diameter to core wire diameter, of the wound strings.

 

Up to a point using a larger core diameter gives a string greater volume and sustain, but string stiffness is increased, making the string harder to play and its harmonic purity is compromised. Using a thin core results in a more flexible string that is easier to play, with good harmonic purity, but lower volume and sustain. Hex core dimensions for standard string set gauges and tunings don’t normally exceed 0.016 across the flats for the low E string. Hex cores normally increase by about 0.001 per string from the wound g string upwards, although some manufacturers may use the same core size for two successive wound strings in a set.

 

 

 

 

It does state

 

Doubling a solid (unwound) string's diameter quadruples its strength and the tension required for a particular pitch, but increases its stiffness 16 times! Only very small changes in the core wire have big effects on tension and the strings feel.

 

I'll add wrapping a string is like wrapping a spring around it. That spring however doesn't supply additional tension to the string. It cant. If you pull on the wrap only end to end it unwinds from the core wire. The wrap isn't even wrapped around the ball end so its only held to the core bu its tight wraps. Its not pulled on end to end.

 

The wrap adds weight to the string which increases inertia which slows the string movement and there by lowers the pitch.

 

So, You can have two strings with the same core size and tension but different weights of wraps. If you tune them to the same tension you will not produce the same pitch. The light string will vibrate faster producing a higher note.

 

I believe this is what you were attempting to mention and how there is a ratio between tension and density. We were just describing it from different perspectives. I was keeping the material type and weight a constant and varying the core size only. You were explaining how the density/weight has a bearing on how much tension is required to being that string to pitch. These are all connected together through the same physics.

 

Back to the topic though where this all began and was my main point. The biggest factor is scale lengths. Going from a long scale bass to a short scale plays hell on string tension. What sounds and feels great on a long scale bass is greatly changed when you put them on a short scale. You don't notice much change going from a 25.5" fender scale guitar neck to ma Gibson scale, but on basses that length is changed by several inches. 30" vs 34" or more. This really plays hell on the way the strings flex and feel. Using short scale strings which have thicker core wires helps compensate for the shorter scale length. The problem again is you have limited choices. If you do use long scale strings going up a gauge can help but they still weird out on you like a long scaled bass that's tuned down 2 or three frets. It feels flabby.