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Amp Selection


gmhaigh

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Good Day HCBF,

 

It's been an aeon since I've been at all active here, which directly reflects my bass playing over the last few years - non-existent. We have decided to take the plunge and relocate back to South Africa after 16 fantastic years living in The UK, specifically London. Before we leave, though, I'm doing some shopping :D:D:D

 

I'm looking at 2 basses, a Lakland Skyline 44-64 in 3tone sunburst and a G&L Tribute L-2500 Blueburst for the basses. while I'm not a huge fan of blue basses, the finish on this one is awesome, and relatively good value, which brings me to the quandary:

 

Which amp?

 

It's basically a 2 horse race between an Orange Terror 500 and an TC Electronics RH450.

 

I'm not in a position where I can demo the amps due to work obligations between Wife and I (she's on weekends) and taking care of the brats, so have done some extensive youtube'ing. The Orange has the vintage appeal and Valve pre-, but the TC just seems like a better all-round package, which is reflected in the higher price.

 

I was completely sold on the Orange, but the TC is just always making me think twice. I could add a valve stage at a later date as well, if the need won't fade??

 

Please share any experience and advice you have, kind sirs and madams.

 

Thanks

 

-g-

 

 

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didn't mention which models. Different models by different manufacturers can be very different.

 

I suggest you visit the manufacturers sites and read through the forums. If you read enough you can usually spot the model amps that suck and also get a feeling for how well the manufacturer supports their customers. I was just breezing the TC site and saw dozens of service issues and out of the box failures. This may be typical on a manufacturers forum because the people who do go there are usually looking for help, but if you see 50 posts on one particular model and everyone there is having the same issue, it may be a good reason to steer away from that model.

 

You can also just Google something like "problem with such and suck head and you can often find the people who have had problems.

 

We are often too eager to spend our money and don't look for faults until they occur. Unfortunately that is usually after we bought something and a warrantee has run out.

 

If you are changing countries as you said, another concern might be getting it repaired if it does developed issues. Models sold in that country may have local repair. If not, you have to ship it and deal with all those costs.

 

I buy allot of used gear. I'm an electronic tech so I'm not too concerned about restoration and repairs because I do that myself so long as the gear is simple enough and isn't loaded with proprietary parts. I can buy standard tubes transistors and op amps anyplace. When you get into some high tech stuff, the parts are only available through that manufacturer and they got you by the ass for parts price and repair costs.

 

The other thing is resale value.. Something super new wont have any used ones being sold unless its a real dud then you find EBay loaded with people trying to dump them on someone else. If you find a bunch of bad ones being sold its a sign they were too expensive to repair so again, its something to stay away from.. Your big names usually have their quality control in good shape and have good support too.

 

They make so many you can usually find what you need with few issues. Time is the true test though. When I buy say a tube amp, It may have the same design as an amp built 60 years ago and so long as quality parts are used the amp can last a lifetime. You just have to be sure you want to live with that tone for the rest of your life.

 

I'm not a big fan of built in effects, tuners and all that stuff. A tuner costs maybe $10 and they tag on $100 for that feature because its built in. Same deal for effects. The quality of built in effects usually isn't that great and all it does is compromise the heads durability because there's more parts and more chances of failures. Other then maybe a built in compressor or limiter, Bass amps have no need for effects.

 

Everything else is either personal preference.. Cost, The instrument being used, The kind of music you play, Weight, Tone, Headroom, are a few. If you already have a cab, matching the head to the cab to get the best results can be a factor. How it looks to impress others may be your thing, and how well its built for road work may trump something good for studio work. No one can tell you what you need to buy, especially today where there are thousands of choices and comparable models. With all these factors involved, unless you get real specific on what you want or need, you can have as many opinions thrown at you as there are pieces of gear available. You can find the biggest piece of crap amp out there and you'll find someone who think its the greatest thing made.

 

The way I check out gear is I do allot of open mic nights. I get to hear bands playing through gear from the audience then get to try it first hand playing on stage. Believe me, I've had plenty of surprising disappointments playing through gear I thought might be good. In other cases Something relatively inexpensive may be more then enough.

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didn't mention which models. Different models by different manufacturers can be very different. . . .

No, the OP didn't mention models at all:

 

. . . It's basically a 2 horse race between an Orange Terror 500 and an TC Electronics RH450. . . .

AHHHHH CRAP' date=' I've just seen the Aguilar tone hammer 500!!! eekphil[/quote']

Next time, actually read the post before you reply. Anyway, now that you know which models (assuming you bother to read this post) you can share your wisdom.

 

To the OP: I note that the RH450 is listed as discontinued. Possibly you might get a "deal" because of this. Beyond that, frankly, all three are above my means.

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the other thing I'm after is a cabinet, and am looking at a local custom shop called Zilla... here's a pic of the 2x12, which is a custom job with the racing stripes, so not what I'm after... measuring 760x470x380. Very much i like!!!!!!!!!!

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Next time, actually read the post before you reply. Anyway, now that you know which models (assuming you bother to read this post) you can share your wisdom.

 

You know I'm really sick of your attitude. If I want a proof reader I'll hire one. You been around here long enough to know why I made that post so quit being a jackass. Maybe its you who should read my post and learn something from it instead of constantly encouraging people to impulse buy. There's tons of gear out there that isn't worth dime for reason or another. Many of those reasons are easily found with a simple Google.

 

Part of being a good musician is knowing this racket and spending your money wisely. If you ever worked as a musician full time touring as I have you'd know exactly what I'm talking about. In the 40 years I played full time on and off for a living I can't name a single club owner that didn't play games to try and rip musicians off and if you haven't got what it takes to support your peers in the industry you're never going to work with professionals in this business. If you cant be trusted to look out for them why should they bother watching out or teaching you the essential things you have to know to be successful.

 

Being a good musician involves a whole lot more then just being able to play the notes and sound good. If you aren't able to gain the respect of your peers you stand alone on that stage with no comrades to support your performance. If you don't have the ability to cover others mistakes on stage then you are a self centered fool. Being a musician involves joining a brotherhood, and if you haven't got what it takes to be your brothers keeper when asked you'll never earn the respect of others in this business. If you choose to be a lone wolf who prefers to have the world against them then the odds are you'll get exactly what you're looking for.

 

My advise to the OP again is to wait at least a day and get over the urge to spend the money burning a hole in their pocket and research what they think they want, in depth by digging up both the dirt and the good reviews on any gear you plan on buying. Put the facts in front of you on all the products you may choose to buy and make a chart on all the positive and negative items about the product. Then decide which is best for your needs without emotion or gas. This may sound like a Kill Joy because people get a thrill out of spending their money but its something you'll wish you had done if you do get burned.

 

Even then there's a good chance of making a mistakes but at least it will be an educated mistakes. I don't care if its something as small as a guitar pick or entire studio full of gear. Life is too dam short to make stupid mistakes and be suckered by some slick sales advertisements or ding bat bobble heads on the internet who aren't looking out for your best interest. I don't spend a dime until I've at least read the user manual from front to back as well. I cant count the times I avoided making bad mistakes buying gear by doing this. The mistakes I did make were all because I didn't listen to my own advice of researching what I plan on buying and I have no one but myself to blame for making those mistakes.

 

When I see someone posting, should I buy this or that, My gut reaction is to say, Whoa, slow down and lets analyze your needs and the products that best suit those needs. I know my advise may be a waste of time but at least I make the attempt.

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You know I'm really sick of your attitude. . . .

Thanks. That makes us even. In your previous post you specifically said the OP

didn't mention which models. . . .

That is simply not true and it sabotages the remainder of your post. Surely you've noticed that a letter to the editor which contains a typo, no matter how minor, is simply disregarded as making no valid points. In fact, the OP mentioned three specific models. You'll notice I didn't recommend any of them because they all three represent a truly significant investment. Your point about doing research is well taken but the OP asked for personal recommendations based on experience. Again, I have no experience with any of the amps involved so I didn't say anything. I did, however, point out that the TC Electronics RH450 is discontinued and might be a "deal." This is not the same as "constantly encouraging people to impulse buy."

 

Personally, when I ask for advice/feedback I've already done the Google (in my case, Bing) thing and read what I can. I also tend to analyze a purchase to death. Yes, I've been burned by impulse purchases--my electric guitar comes to mind. So when I ask for advice I expect something with more depth than "try Google." This is, in large measure, simply going to turn up the "ding bat bobble heads" for whom you claim to have no use and another way of saying "I don't know."

 

You make a big deal out of "being a good musician". Nothing wrong with that. I have the utmost respect for good musicians. But part of being a good band member or a good forum member is knowing what you're talking about without being a jerk about it and accepting constructive criticism with grace. It doesn't matter how great you are or how much you know if nobody wants to be in the same band with you or participate in the same forum. We should all be working together to elevate the level of discussion.

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ANYWAY...

 

To put things in perspective:

 

My last rig was an SVT200t into a 410SE, with a BDDI, all being driven by a warwick streamer std 5. I sold it all as we were going away long term on a job placement, and I wasn't really happy with the kit... It wasn't bad by any means, just didn't suit me, moving forward.

 

I'm being offered a very generous 'Golden Handshake' by my current employers, and I've decided to spunk it on bass gear.

 

Back to the Amp Selection Crisis:

 

I went to the Black Sabbath gig in Hyde Park on Friday, and there, lo and behold, is Billy Gould (FNM played earlier :):)) rocking a bunch of Aguilar tone hammer 500's into some crazy white 8x10's!!

 

As one of my all time fave players, and getting pretty much blown away by his tone during the gig (yes, it was a Zon etc.but we're talking amps here!) It's settled the crisis down, almost completely.

 

I'm getting one :)

 

Anyone check out the Zilla cabs?? I've also discovered Nolly from Periphery rocks those, recently!!

 

Thanks,

 

(Peace and Love, ya'll :p)

 

 

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ANYWAY... Anyone check out the Zilla cabs??

 

They must be something unique to your area. I took a quick look at their site and all the cabs look like guitar cabs to me. They seem to be too shallow for bass cabs. You could mount bass speakers in them but without the right air mass you'll never get the right bass resonance for the notes being played especially if you do any down tuning. Bass cabs also need to be tuned to the speakers resonance to get the proper bass from them.

 

They do list some custom options. They mention a 1x15 in a modern 2x12 casing. That sounds like a poor match for bass speaker to me.

They also mention 6X12" cabs which might work with the right speakers. You really need to know what the cabs air volume is when you're dealing with custom bass cabs. If you want maximum output the cabs must be tuned, otherwise the speaker fights the air movement too much. You can use any cab with guitars because the frequencies are all midrange but bass has huge transients in comparison so its best to stay away from guitar cabs.

 

Most of your better bass cabs center around 10's and 15's using heavy duty speakers that can handle the transients. This site seems to be into 12's and Celestion's which spells unturned guitar cabs to me. Of course some bass players used 12's. John Entwistle for example was one who pioneered using an 8X12" Marshall cab to get driven midrange tones. Not many bass players go for that driven guitar tone these days.

 

I do own an 6X12" Sunn cab from the 70's. With good speakers it can sound pretty good with its V shaped baffle and vented port. I don't use it much because the thing just weighs too dam much to be bothered with it. If I was going for a heavy cab I'd go with an SVT, not a 6X12.

 

My 1X15" Sunn with its folded front port is excellent cab. I wish I could find the 2X15" version that was used with the model T head. I put a 300W EV in that one and I can use it solo at most gigs. It got a real long throw on the sound and begins to sound great about 25" away.

 

My EV cab also has an 18" EV and 2X10's which is pretty good. Its another wooly beast though and If I have a choice for gigs I usually go for something lighter if I can. It sounds good its just a bastard to move.

 

That Zilla site seems to favor Celestion's. They make good guitar speakers but I'm not impressed with their bass speakers. I bought a pair of 300W Celestion 15" speakers recently and put them in my Vintage Traynor cab and I'm pretty disappointed with the results. I tried them in PA cabs as well and ran some frequency analysis tests and was not impressed with them at all.

 

The 15's just happen to make fantastic rhythm guitar speakers though so I may get some use out of them. Part of the issue I know is the Traynor cab is pretty shallow. If the cab was a bit deeper like my old Bassman cab or Ampeg B52 can was it would be ideal. Traynor just screwed up with that cab design. They probably re-voiced the head or used dull sounding speakers to decrease the mids but the can does gasp for air playing bass. Those Zilla cabs look too thin as well which is why I mentioned it as a key factor in getting good bass tones.

 

If you cant be there to try them out then compare cab specs with other well known bass cabs. Many begin with being at least 18" deep which is about 6" deeper then a guitar cab. From there its all about having the speaker matched to the cab size to get the best results.

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. . . Anyone check out the Zilla cabs?? I've also discovered Nolly from Periphery rocks those' date=' recently!! . . .[/quote']

I'm with WRGKMC. I've never heard of them. I checked their site and they're a UK custom builder and don't ship to here in the US. Again, they appear to specialize in guitar cabs. At least, all the descriptions say "guitar cabs." They do offer cabs with closed backs http://zillacabs.com/open_or_closed.php and it's conceivable they could build a decent bass cab. They might even be the bee's knees as far as Nolly is concerned but personally I'd look elsewhere.

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Hi W

 

yeah I shoulda mentioned the Bass Cabs are custom! They aren't featured on the site yet :)

 

spec is: 760x470x380 for the 2x12 and for the 700x470x350 2x10. 26kg loaded with Neo speakers for the 2x12 ain't bad!

 

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Sorry, didn't see your post Deep End!

 

Yeah, they're custom and built to spec.

 

They'll be loaded with either Celestion BN10200s or BN12-300S depending on the decision I make. I wouldn't mind garnering a bit of opinion as to the 12-300s vs 12-300x green label if anyone has any experience??

 

Thanks

 

 

 

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Sorry, didn't see your post Deep End!

 

Yeah, they're custom and built to spec.

 

They'll be loaded with either Celestion BN10200s or BN12-300S depending on the decision I make. I wouldn't mind garnering a bit of opinion as to the 12-300s vs 12-300x green label if anyone has any experience??

 

Thanks

 

fetch?filedataid=101898&type=full

 

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Sorry, didn't see your post Deep End!

 

Yeah, they're custom and built to spec.

 

They'll be loaded with either Celestion BN10200s or BN12-300S depending on the decision I make. I wouldn't mind garnering a bit of opinion as to the 12-300s vs 12-300x green label if anyone has any experience??

 

Thanks

 

fetch?filedataid=101898&type=full

 

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Sorry, didn't see your post Deep End!

 

Yeah, they're custom and built to spec.

 

They'll be loaded with either Celestion BN10200s or BN12-300S depending on the decision I make. I wouldn't mind garnering a bit of opinion as to the 12-300s vs 12-300x green label if anyone has any experience??

 

Thanks

 

 

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Sorry, didn't see your post Deep End!

 

Yeah, they're custom and built to spec.

 

They'll be loaded with either Celestion BN10200s or BN12-300S depending on the decision I make. I wouldn't mind garnering a bit of opinion as to the 12-300s vs 12-300x green label if anyone has any experience?? Thanks

 

The specs on the ~~BN10200 shttp://celestion.com/product/11/bn10200s/ rolls off beginning at 200Hz and theres nothing below 80. The BN12-300S http://celestion.com/product/10/bn12300s/ rolls off below 200hz and bottoms out at 50hz.

 

An open E note on a bass Guitar is 41HZ. If you down tune to play metal material it goes even lower.

 

These speakers would make excellent mid drivers. They both have nice peaks around 3K which brings out a bass guitars slap string tones. Without the bottom end, its going to be competing with the guitars in the band however, masking their tones so you wont be setting yourself up to having a good balance with them unless they use a whole lot of treble tones.

 

They would make them good midrange cabs if you pair them up with a 15" cab and driver. By themselves you're going to wind up with a dead low E string because the frequencies roll off below 200 Hz too much. I like you're idea of using Neo's because of the light weight, but it all comes down to sound quality. Bass is more about moving air and being felt then it is about being highly articulate. Bass can be a solo instrument if you're super good but thats not your typical band material. Disco and slap bass isn't exactly hot stuff right now either. Having a good mid cab can define the notes especially farther up the neck, but when there's no low end that matches the drummers kick (usually a 16" drum head) you don't have a large enough footprint to compete with the other band members very well. It doesn't matter how many watts the speakers can produce if the frequency range isn't within the range of the strings to produce.

 

The essential bass frequencies are between 40~500kz. Adding mids from 500~3K is about all bass guitar needs. You can use higher frequency speakers or even a horn but there just isn't much up there you need or want to reproduce. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hwnCNuE0Gqk/TUs7ODXE9lI/AAAAAAAAAKA/hvdGzxRHlIc/s1600/Interactive-Frequency-Chart.png

 

 

If you had a 1X15 and a pair of 10's or 12's that would be a great match. You get the best of both worlds that way. Or 4X10's seems to work well with the right cab but you also need the right speakers.

 

You do have to think about impedance though. If you use an 8 ohm 15" you'd need a pair of 16 ohm tens to give you a total or 4 or 16 ohms. If you use two 8 ohm 12's or 10's you may want to go with 16 ohm. This will give you an 8 ohm cab that you can use with another 8 ohm 15" cab to give you a total of 4 ohms.

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It's surprising how many "bass" speakers roll off gradually below 200 Hz. This is not a recommendation but here's the response curve for an Eminence BP102 10" (scroll down for the response curve): http://www.usspeaker.com/legend%20bp102-1.htm. Notice that it has much more low end than either Celestion, down maybe 5 dB at 40 Hz. I know US Speaker isn't in your part of the world but consider using the site for research. If you're sold on the Celestions and on Zilla, I'd go with the 12"s, which have more low end, but as WRGKMC posted, plan to add a sub, either a 1X15 or 1X18.

 

That said, the amp companies you mentioned originally all make bass cabs:

Orange OBC410 https://www.orangeamps.com/products/...0-speaker-cab/,

TC Electronics BC410 http://www.tcelectronic.com/bc410/ and RS410 http://www.tcelectronic.com/rs410/, and

Aguilar GS410 http://aguilaramp.com/products_cabinets_gs410.htm. There's unlikely to be anything wrong with any of them and you know they'll work with the same company's amps.

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thanks chaps!!

 

Thing is I need a 2x cab right for size reasons. Price wise, the Zilla stuff is a great deal for what it is... £480 ($821.22) compared to anything else, only EBs calssic comes close, and I want a light weight cab. Chucking a 15" or another 2x in the future is quite possible...

 

oh and apologies for the multiple posts again...

 

Thanks

 

Greg

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It's surprising how many "bass" speakers roll off gradually below 200 Hz. This is not a recommendation but here's the response curve for an Eminence BP102 10" (scroll down for the response curve): http://www.usspeaker.com/legend%20bp102-1.htm. Notice that it has much more low end than either Celestion' date=' down maybe 5 dB at 40 Hz. I know US Speaker isn't in your part of the world but consider using the site for research. If you're sold on the Celestions and on Zilla, I'd go with the 12"s, which have more low end, but as WRGKMC posted, plan to add a sub, either a 1X15 or 1X18. [/quote']

 

If you look at the resonant frequency of at eminence, its 35Hz which is quite good for bass tones when matched with the proper cab size. You probably wont have any issues hitting the low notes with those.

 

Most of what you hear from a bass guitar is its second order of harmonics which would be 82hz from an open E producing a fundamental tone of 41 Hz. The fundamental wave produces the warmth of the note but its actually very hard if you filter out the harmonics because its at the low end of our hearing spectrum. It also takes allot of power to have it heard. You also have 3rd and 4th and 5th order harmonics at 123Hz, 164 Hz, and 205Hz. Without the harmonics the open E string would be very hard to hear.

 

In many classic recordings the bass guitars fundamental frequencies were often rolled off in a number of ways. The speaker response has its roll off. The Mics used rolled off lows as well. The room the bass is recorded in can also increase the 2nd, 3rd and 4th order harmonics through room resonance to make the fundamental frequency lower in comparison. Eventually, high pass filters and EQ's were a added to mixing boards and amps where the fundamental frequencies can be removed electronically.

 

This was essential in recording because too much bass power would ruin an LP when its cut or cause the needle to jump out of a groove. This became less of an issue once recordings were made digitally. Those rap records you hear with all the sub lows are possible with all the headroom digital provides. When recording to tape, the lows would oversaturate the tape so most of the fundamental tones were eliminated.

 

To have quality harmonics you do have to have quality fundamental tones. Using Compression is one way of evening up the fundamental and harmonics. If you listen to say an older Beatles song, McCartney used a ton of compression to get his bass to sound the way it did. H's use it tracking, then add more when mixing. This way you could hear the bass clearly on an AM radio station through a very midrangy dashboard speaker. You were hearing mostly 2nd, 3ed, and 4th order harmonics of the notes.

 

Playing live is a very different thing though. You need plenty of fundamental tones to make a band sound good in a room that has allot of reflections. Those lower vibrations are what make people want to get up and dance when they feel it. You could say its what gives them a buzz.

 

You can probably record well using a pair of 10's or 12's. You can EQ the tones up that are needed and tape the excess mids down mixing. I've recorded many songs using a 4X10" cab that was designed for guitar and gotten good results. Rehearsals and playing live is a whole different thing. I had a bass player audition about a year ago. He had a decent amp head. I think it was a Hartke setup because it had aluminum speaker cones. It was loud as hell but he only had a 2X10 cab. Even though it was loud it sounded very small because the speakers and cab were small, There was practically no fundamental tones being produced so you couldn't feel the bass. The tones it did produce were too strong in the 200~500hz ranges only which masked most of the live drums and interfered with the bass strings on the guitars.

 

In essence its just created a really bad mix for the band and without those lows it just added all kinds of unneeded clutter. If he had been a better bass player, I would have run a direct line into the PA and gotten some lows happening and he would have sounded a whole lot better. Many bands do that now. They go with super small amps then use a good PA to get all their body and bigness. I prefer to have amps that match the drummer. I find it is and has always been the best place to start. It doesn't have to be super loud, it just has to equal the drummer. Many drummers are also using much smaller drums to match the smaller amps on stage. This does work well and the extra space you save loading a van helps allot.

 

 

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. . . Thing is I need a 2x cab right for size reasons. Price wise' date=' the Zilla stuff is a great deal for what it is... £480 ($821.22) compared to anything else, only EBs calssic comes close, and I want a light weight cab. . . .[/quote']

Okay, you didn't say that originally. If you go with a 2X12 cab with the Celestions that's probably about as good as you're going to get. Bear in mind, there's a "right" size box for a given speaker but the characteristics of the speaker place limits on what you can achieve. In this case, a sealed box would produce a reasonably flat response down to only about 100 Hz with a rolloff below that. That's all. Hardly "bass" territory. The 10" is worse, with a rolloff below about 200 Hz. For comparison's sake, the Eminence BP-102 I linked to earlier would roll off below 60 Hz in the same cab. There are online Thiele/Small calculators where you can check this for yourself. I used this one: http://www.micka.de/org/en/index.php#ideal. I'm not happy with the results you'll be getting with the Celestions and frankly you shouldn't be either but it's your money.

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