Help - Questions on Bass Cabinets/Rig/Setups

[x432hz]

Hello. This is my first post so bear with me here.

I feel a bit ashamed asking this question having been playing electric-bass since 1985, but, I'm a player, not much of a technical know how guy, especially when it comes to equipment. I always played through combo amps, mostly because I could never afford a nice setup.

 

About 10 years ago, I bought my first rig, and that consisted of all Hartke, bought brand new:

Hartke HA3500 Head

Hartke 4.5XL 4x10" Cabinet

 

Through it I played my custom Fender American deluxe jazz bass, and I was going into an old ART nightbass se preamp/effects processor, of which I only used the analog compressor during live gigs (that was until some fat stupid drunk bitch spilled her super-sticky thick mixed drink all down the front panel of it in a godforsaken horrible gig in some lost off the map stankpool in New Jersey somewhere!!!), now, all the digital effects are useless with this horrible constant buzzing sound, but the analog compressor still works, but I stopped using that anyway. (sorry, had to throw that story in there, i loved messing around with that preamp, and I miss it.)

 

Anyway, for years I was going direct right into the Hartke setup, and with all that money spent on a brand new Hartke rig, I could never get use to that super-high bright "snap" the speakers would always give off. In fact, I hated it.

 

With the music stores around me, it's impossible to get anyone to mix and match stuff for me in the store so I can check out different setups, I guess they are just lazy, but I want to throw out the questions to you guys and get some different opinions.

 

[1] For one thing, what I want to understand is, when a head states that it gives out say, 350 Watts @ 8ohms (like the Hartke head I had above), does that mean that-that is the total power you get out of it when the volume is turned all the way up to the maximum 10? -or does it depend on how hard your playing your bass that determines how much is being out-putted?? - I'm not sure I'm undertanding how it works.

 

[2] I no longer have that rig and am ready to buy a new one. I see that Hartke has a new rig out there, with half-paper/half aluminum speakers, and a new 1000 Watt head, both of which are fairly priced. -I'm wondering what anyone thinks about this setup.

 

[3] I would like to know what people think about the Ampeg setups, Gallien-Krueger, Trace Elliot, and Mesa-Boogie. Which do you guys like, why?, and is it ok to mix and match, that is, buy maybe one head and a different brand name cabinet, or should I stay all with the same name.?

 

I'm expecting to do a whole variety of different sized gigs, so I would want the power there if I need it.

What I want is a 4x10 cab & a 1x15 cab, and use them both at the same time.

but then I was thinking for practice and even smaller gigs, maybe it would be better to just

have a 2x10 cab, and then lay that on top of the 1x15 for big gigs, but then how would that work

with the power the head puts out with using only the 2x10 by itself, and other.

 

I'm getting confused already.

 

Hartke has a new system out, a 1000 watt head feeding 2 cabinets, their HyDrive cabinets

4x10 and a 1x15, so I'm guessing using both at the same time would split the power from the head

feeding each cabinet 500 watts, .... ?

 

Anyway, I'm back in mass confusion here again. I want to spend my money wisely and not wind up

with something I hate and become a slave to my equipment.

 

.....~Thanks.

[WynnD]

1000 watts is outdoor power and not needed for rational club work. The 3500 head is only about 240 watts into 8 ohms. It's 350 watts into a 4 ohm load. (Like two 8 ohm cabinets running in parallel.) Couple of things. Assuming similar speaker efficiency, the 1000 watt amp is only 6 db louder than the 250 watt amp. So speaker efficiency has a HUGE affect upon how loud things are. A 4 x 10" cabinet has just about the same speaker surface as a 2 x 15" cabinet, but is a lot smaller. So why bother with a single 15" cabinet at all? On the other hand, I used to own an Acoustic 301 speaker cabinet. Hard to haul around, but was loud enough with a 70 watt amp. (And would handle a 300 watt amp. There's that 6 db increase for the additional 230 watts.)

[Pine Apple Slim]

I have been pondering the same problem for quite a while. Add to the mix I also need something workable with upright bass as well.

I have learned in my research it seems to be a consensus that Its not advisable to mix and match different sized cabs. Unless they are from the same mnf and designed to work together. Even then it would be best to test in real world conditions to confirm the system was indeed designed to work together and not just a product of the marketing dept.

For myself Ive determined that what I need is 300 to 500w of RELIABLE clean power.

Speakers need to be light and scalable. To me a couple of single 12s seems would be the ideal. Either 2 quality 12" neo cabs, or a fEarful or fEarless design with a sub is prob the way Im headed.

But none of the above is cheap, esp in something lightweight. So I keep saving and looking.

 

Good luck in your quest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DeepEnd]

Okay, a couple of things from a rhythm guitarist who noodles around on bass. First, it's okay to mix and match brands (i.e., a Fender head with a Carvin cab) as long as the head can run the impedance of the cab (no sense plugging a 4 Ohm cab into a head with a minimum spec of 8 Ohms) and the cab can handle the rated output of the head.

 

The power rating (normally RMS or continuous) of the head is how hard it can be driven before it exceeds a specified level of distortion, say 2%. Ideally, the spec will also give a frequency range such as 20Hz-10KHz but a lot of the time it's just at one frequency like 1KHz, which tends to produce better numbers, or they don't even tell you how they measured it.

 

If you're going to run two cabs, it's best to match their impedance but don't use two 4 Ohm cabs. The norm is to run multiple cabs in parallel and two 4 Ohm cabs will result in 2 Ohms, which is too low for most amps (a few will run 2 Ohms; check the specs if you're even remotely thinking about running two 4 Ohm cabs). Other than that, you can run any two 8 Ohm cabs all day with no problem, 1X15, 2X10, 4X12, you name it.

 

As for the gear you've mentioned, nobody ever went wrong buying Ampeg. The others are well regarded as well. I haven't seen much love for Hartke but I also haven't tried their gear myself. My own bass amp is a 60 Watt 1X12 SWR combo and I like it a lot. I'm also a Peavey fan from 'way back. Don't sell their gear short.

[isaac42]

[1] When a head says that it puts out 350 watts into 8 ohms, that is the maximum clean power it can produce. It's not directly related to where the volume is set. A high output bass could easily drive the amp to full power at a relatively low setting, while a low output bass might need to be turned up much higher. It's unlikely that any bass would need to have the volume turned all the way up to reach full output, as there is always some excess gain designed into the amp.

 

[2] No idea about the new Hartke rig.

 

[3] All of the brands you mention are potentially good rigs. The only questions are whether or not they suit your needs and you like the sound. Nothing wrong with mixing and matching brands, as DeepEnd said. Like Pine Apple Slim, I am not a big fan of mixing different sized drivers, but I'm not a fanatic about it, and have done it on several occasions. At heart, I'm a hi fidelity kind of guy, and prefer to have all of a given frequency band covered by the same size drivers.

 

How much power one needs depends on a lot of factors. How big a room are you playing (or are you outside?), how loud is the music you're playing, what kind of sound reinforcement do you have? Playing bass with an unmiked acoustic guitarist in a coffee shop takes a lot less power than playing heavy metal in a coliseum where the bass rig has to cover all of the low end, though that rarely happens anymore. For a recent gig, I took a 150w tube head (Sunn Model T) and a 4x10" cabinet, and it was capable of being excessively loud in a moderately large room, but the drums were not miked. Probably we were about at the amp's clean limit, maybe even a hair past, but I didn't hear any distortion even when the guest bassist was overloud. OTOH, I've augmented the same rig with a slave amp into a 2x15" speaker and it was getting pretty fuzzy, but that was an outdoor gig.

[WynnD]

Outdoors everyone needs more power. But bigger gigs have everything running though the pa anyway.

[Klatuu]

I use a Hartke 1x15 and an SWR Workingman 2x10 with a tweeter. I drive it with an Ampeg B1RE. I use a Sansamp preamp (love it) and a Behringer compressor. I have yet to play anywhere the amp couldn't handle. For the outdoor stuff and larger clubs I come off the Sansamp into the snake to back up my amp.

I have always preferred Ampeg.

[WRGKMC]

First off, wattage has nothing to do with loudness. Its a power consumption rating the speaker consumes to make sound.

Loudness is measured in decibels and speakers have an SPL rating that's measured in DB's. High efficient speakers with a high SPL will do a better job of converting wattage into sound and are going to be louder then low efficient ones.

 

Next, High SPL speakers don't always sound better then Low SPL speakers, especially for bass because the low frequencies move the speaker piston allot more then higher frequencies. Having a tighter spider that supports the cone around the magnet, tighter surround and thicker paper can give a tighter/warmer sound then a lighter cone that has a higher SPL so efficiency isn't always the goal neither is loudness.

 

Next, Bass cabs (unlike Guitar cabs) are tuned to the resonant frequency of the speaker. There's a number of reasons for this. In a sealed cab, the air volume acts like a shock absorber so the cone returns to neutral quickly after compressing the air when the magnet it pulls it in, or the suction pulls it back when it pushes out. In other ported cabs, the ports are tuned to have the waves in phase with the speaker piston and it increases the bass response by using the air from both sides of the speakers.

 

Matching the cab response to the heads tone stack is more difficult with bass because the cabs are tuned to the speakers. With a matching setup its easy to change the EQ circuit to either cover up or enhance what the speakers/cab does for the sound. This is why some cabs sound great with some heads and may sound thin or muddy with others. The heads were designed to get the best tones from a specific cab using specific drivers mounted in a specific cab size. An SVT Head can sound fantastic on the SVT cabs, and the speakers in those cabs are far from the best made, but they are tunes to the head. Take that same head and plug it into say a Traynor cab and it might sound thin as hell because the head isn't voiced to drive that cab.

 

Like many, you do the best with what you can scrounge up. The best matches are usually going to be made by manufacturers who have the facility to make good matching decisions when they design the gear. When you start mixing and matching components for several different manufacturers its pretty much pot luck for results. You can kind of guess what the results might be if you have experiences with the components, but there's always room for surprises.

 

You're right, most music stores could care less about letting you try their gear out. To the people working there its often times annoying background noise being made by kids who have no money to purchase gear so they tend to discourage it unless you show them the bank wad first. Then you cant get them from leaving you alone.

 

The best way you can get to know gear is by seeing other bands or doing open mic nights so you can test out their gear. Asking the bass player what he likes and dislikes about the gear, and his opinions on what he's used in the past is another key item. I have no problem telling others about the rigs I've used and which gave me the best results. I wouldn't mind having my old V4B head back and the B52 cab with a pair of Vintage Altecs in it. A 100W Tube head will blow the doors off most 500W solid state heads and that amp was usually too loud for most clubs I played in, mainly because the Altecs were very efficient speakers. Sound men were always asking me to turn down, but I got my best tone on #5 so it usually stayed there. It was their job to make the rest of the music loud enough to compete with the bass and they usually did because we rented a 5000W system that could do that job.

 

I have about 4 different bass heads and 5 different cabs so I'm always switching things around to get different tones. The little 350W Ampeg Portaflex head I recently bought for $100 is a little firecracker for its size. The 500W version would likely be enough power to gig with. Its mostly a matter of headroom and finding the sweet spot. A head may put out maximum power with the volume fully cranked but loudness and quality are two different things. Nearly all heads I've ever used sound best running between 50~75% of max. Some may sound good even lower but rarely do they sound better for cleans higher. There are exceptions of course. I use that as a rule of thumb for targeting what I need. Amps often loose allot of presence and can even sound muted or whimpy run too low. Run too high and they may fart all over the place.

 

So when I'm figuring power, I take the total and cut it in half and that's usually going to be my optimal wattage I'll use to get the best tones and punch. If its a 300W head I'm likely going to run it at 150W which is a bit low for most bands. I could get away with it if I have really efficient speakers. 500W should do the job for most clubs and running it at 200~250W should allow the EQ setting to provide the maximum ranges.

 

As far as speaker wattage, they don't have to be any higher then the maximum RMS wattage of the head. Never lower or you take a chance on cooking one or all. Speakers tend to sound best and be most efficient when run between 50~75% of their maximum wattages. This tends to correspond to a head sounding its best between 50~75% as well.

 

You can up the wattage is you want the cleanest possible tones at max volume but you really don't need to go much above a 50% increase. Double the wattage if you think you may upgrade the head at some later date or use multiple heads for different gigs. It doesn't make any sense to connect 1000w speaker 100w amp. Running that head at 50% is going to be pushing that speaker with maybe 50W which is about 5% of that's speakers capability and isn't going to sound as good as say 150w speaker with similar specs. Again there are exceptions of course, but having some rule of thumb to make decisions helps you center in on what you may need.

[DeepEnd]

A few corrections: A speaker can be either high efficiency or highly efficient but it can't be "high efficient." SPL (Sound Pressure Level or sensitivity) is only peripherally related to efficiency. SPL is a measure of how loud a speaker is at a given distance with a given input, typically 1 meter and 1 Watt. Efficiency relates to total output, how much electrical power the speaker converts to mechanical (sound) energy. A speaker can produce more volume at the expense of usable low end, something cheap gear does but not necessarily something you want in a bass cabinet.

 

The notion of matching cabs to the frequency response of heads is simply nonsense. The goal--for all manufacturers--is a flat response from both. Yes, in an ideal world, you'd have matching cabs, heads, pickups, cables, straps, etc. but most of us live in the real universe where budgets are not unlimited and something like an Ampeg head with a Fender cab or an SWR head with a GK cab is more common. Same with matching speaker sizes. Ideally, you'd have all 10's, all 15's, etc. or you'd have two cabs that were made for each other and bi-amped but again that doesn't happen in the real world. In practice, it doesn't matter as much as it does in theory. We don't live or play music in labs.

[WRGKMC]

A few corrections: A speaker can be either high efficiency or highly efficient but it can't be "high efficient." SPL (Sound Pressure Level or sensitivity) is only peripherally related to efficiency. SPL is a measure of how loud a speaker is at a given distance with a given input' date=' typically 1 meter and 1 Watt. Efficiency relates to total output, how much electrical power the speaker converts to mechanical (sound) energy. A speaker can produce more volume at the expense of usable low end, something cheap gear does but not necessarily something you want in a bass cabinet.[/quote']

 

You are just nit picking grammar issues and restating what I already said. If you have two speaker with different SPL ratings, powered by the same head at the same wattage, and you test them with a DB meter. The one that's the loudest is the most efficient in converting wattage into sound.

 

 

 

The notion of matching cabs to the frequency response of heads is simply nonsense. The goal--for all manufacturers--is a flat response from both. Yes' date=' in an ideal world, you'd have matching cabs, heads, pickups, cables, straps, etc. but most of us live in the real universe where budgets are not unlimited and something like an Ampeg head with a Fender cab or an SWR head with a GK cab is more common. Same with matching speaker sizes. Ideally, you'd have all 10's, all 15's, etc. or you'd have two cabs that were made for each other and bi-amped but again that doesn't happen in the real world. In practice, it doesn't matter as much as it does in theory. We don't live or play music in labs.[/quote']

 

You have much to learn sir. Not all players are poor and most bass players do spend good money buying matching rigs because they know miss matched components don't provide optimal sound.

 

As far as amps being linear, PA gear and possibly acoustic guitar amps might be, but bass and guitar amps come no where's close. Believe me I am certified electronic tech who has repaired gear for 40+ years and I know this to be a fact. Manufacturers get their signature tones by manipulating frequency responses, otherwise every amp would sound the same. If you learn how to use the test gear that measures "facts", you would know this first hand for yourself.

 

If you want to verify what I'm talking about you can do it yourself. Its actually better if you do because you will then be educated enough to make statement based on actual experience, not opinions from armatures who haven't got a clue.

 

The process is very simple to learn and it can come in handy for all kinds of things in audio/music and recording Its the first thing troubleshooting techniques you learn as a technician repairing audio gear.

 

The basics are, you pump pink (or white) noise into the front end of the head. This sound is very flat consisting of all frequencies, and you can use this test tone to trace circuits and find faults. You can use any one of three types of probes. It can be an amplified speaker, a scope, or an audio analyzer that shows you all the frequency responses.

 

I wouldn't expect you to actually open the head but you can use some substitutes methods. Instead of a probe you can use a good flat response mic in front of the cab and run that signal into a sound card on a computer. You'll need to use an adaptor that will plug into its 1/8" jack.

 

The second item is to use a line out on an amp (if it has one) and run that signal into the Aux input of the sound card. This is a stereo line level input so you will need a 1/8" to 1/4" mono adaptor.

 

Third you need a cable from your sound cards line out and run it into your heads input.

 

Then you can download a demo version of this world standard test tool. http://ral-realtime-analyzer-light.win7dwnld.com/ This company makes the highest quality audio test gear in the world.

 

They used to make hardware versions but moves to software because its allot easier to carry around a laptop then big bulky hardware units that need constant calibration.

 

What you do now, is set the program to output pink or white noise into the head.

 

You set the level so its reasonable to your ears. At the same time you can test the mic and see what kind of signal you're getting back from the speakers in comparison to what's going in. It will be very obvious a bass amp doesn't come near being linear, and even if it has enough EQ control to flatten it up it will likely sound awful with a guitar plugged in.

 

Next you can switch over to the line out on the head and compare that (it would be better if you could use a DI box and connect directly to the speaker jack but that involves money)

 

You can then toggle between what is going into the head, coming directly from the head without a speaker. The response will be wider, but again not linear at all. You can manipulate the tone controls and see what kinds of ranges those controls have.

 

Next you can switch the frequency generator over from pink noise to test tones, and pick frequencies you guitar strings make beginning at 41hz (open e string) and work up through every note. Then write down the readings and chart yourself a graph.

 

I used to do tests like this for a living when I worked for JVC. They'd get a prototype piece of gear in and we'd have to make sure all the charts and documentation matched what the gear could actually do.

 

You can go and try and find me a head and cab combination that gives you a flat response you think it produces using that test but you wont find any. Add to that a bass guitar is no where's near being linear and no two are the same. You add that to the pickup possibilities, strings, wood types, Tone stacks in preamps, Cab size and speaker type you have allot of variables there that lead to imperfections.

 

Here's an example. My crate head for example has a built in graphic EQ. The ranges on the sliders is +24/-24DB at 50,100, 400, 800, 1.5 and 5Khz. I can plug this into one cab and run the EQ flat and get a fairly flat signal recording it with a mic. Once the track is recorded you can view it with a frequency analyzer and "see" its response. I can take that same head and place it on another cab, record it, view it with the analyzer and the response if completely different.

 

For the Ampeg PF350 I have its Bass +14/-12 db @40hz - Midrange +5/-13 db @500HZ - 19/-25DB @8Khz. The head rolls off above 10K so its no where's near being flat in response. The EQ controls set at 12:00 "may" be fairly flat between 40~8Khz if your input is pink noise. Last time I checked however, bass guitars use pickups and are no where near having a flat responses and even the strings you choose have very different outputs depending on their size and material.

 

Add to that speakers have different frequency response curves and different response ranges. Most roll off at around 4~5K so unless you have another cab or horn that can produce those higher tones, you aren't going to hear them.

 

That Crate head I mentioned sounds best with its matching cabs. My bass player and myself have the same heads. He has the matching cabs, I have a half dozen unmatched cabs. None of my cabs have the response he gets form his. He can run his EQ nearly flat and it sounds fine (for a Crate that is) For me I have to tweak that EQ all over the place to try and match the response he gets and it still sucks in comparison. Why? Its because my cabs don't have the same drivers and don't have the same air mass in back of them. If they did they would sound identical.

 

I do have heads that sound great with my cabs I can stick the Sunn or Ampeg head on the sun cabs or the EV and it sounds rich and full on either. The EQ's have enough range where I can dial up good tones even though thay aren't ideal. I take that head and stick it on his Crate cabs and it sounds like mud city with all kinds of weird boom from resonant notes that are way too loud and other notes that disappear.

 

Again If you mix and match gear, its a crap shoot for most whether it will work well because they never learned how to mix and match. Engineers can do it based on the component specs and a calculator. Most heads have a tone stack that bests matches their own cabs best. 12:00 should be fairly neutral tone with the widest variety of instruments. When that cab is not a good match and you used a bass that may have a weird response curve you may not have enough EQ response to compensate for both guitar and cab no matter what you do.

 

As you can see in my example above however, the tone stacking can be very different between manufacturers. The Ampeg's Bass control may be ideal for boosting an Jenson 15" in a Portaflex cab and suck balls on that crate cab that sounds find with the crate head.

 

With the exception of acoustic guitar amps which are fairly flat and wide response, guitar amps are all over the place when it comes to response curves with cabs and heads. Most target mid frequencies and don't produce much below 200hz or above 6~7K before. They roll nearly everything below 200hz. Why? Its simple. Its because its the bass guitars payers job to produce those low notes and you don't want the guitar and bass fighting for those same frequencies.

 

How they carve out these mids and lower highs is exactly how many amps get their signature tones. A Marshall for example notches the treble control on their amps higher and narrower then a Fender amp. A fender amp uses a lower treble notch but its wider and matches many pickups Frequency responses, especially their single coils.

 

Lastly, the goal here is you "don't" want these instruments to have flat responses. They were never intended to have flat responses even when they weren't electrified.

 

What you want to do is to "Target" responses they produce. The amp, cab and speaker are only part of that chain. The guitar and pickups, Strings, effects etc are also a big part This targeting of tones is exactly what is used to different bands unique tomes. If you ever spent any time in a studio mixing you'd know this to be a fact. Combine that with the performers manipulation of those tones and you have all kinds of tonal variations.

 

If for some reason, all players did have a flat response, the combination of all frequencies at equal volume = pink noise. Most do not consider that to be musical sounding. Each instrument has its own specific frequency range. Bass handles the lows, Guitars the mids, Cymbals the highs etc. Its the combination of instruments playing in a band that get you a full frequency response.

 

This is no different then combining all colors together, you get white light. You have no separation between images if they are all white just like instruments have no separation if they all have wide responses. You intentionally roll off frequencies if they are too wide and interfere with others, Or if you're playing in a band and some jackass bass player is blowing you away with high end treble, you're likely going to tell him his sound sucks and find another bass player who has a good rig and and educated ear that can dial up a good tone. .

[DeepEnd]

You are just nit picking grammar issues and restating what I already said. If you have two speaker with different SPL ratings' date=' powered by the same head at the same wattage, and you test them with a DB meter. The one that's the loudest is the most efficient in converting wattage into sound.[/quote']

No, I'm not. There's a difference between efficiency and sensitivity. You're talking about the former while describing the latter.

 

You have much to learn sir. Not all players are poor and most bass players do spend good money buying matching rigs because they know miss matched components don't provide optimal sound.

 

As far as amps being linear, PA gear and possibly acoustic guitar amps might be, but bass and guitar amps come no where's close. Believe me I am certified electronic tech who has repaired gear for 40+ years and I know this to be a fact. Manufacturers get their signature tones by manipulating frequency responses, otherwise every amp would sound the same. If you learn how to use the test gear that measures "facts", you would know this first hand for yourself.

I'll give you a pass on electric guitar amps but it's well established that a bass or keyboard amp is a good substitiute for an acoustic guitar amp so we're pretty much talking flat.

 

If you want to verify what I'm talking about you can do it yourself. Its actually better if you do because you will then be educated enough to make statement based on actual experience' date=' not opinions from armatures who haven't got a clue. . . .[/quote']

I don't know why I'd want to take an opinion from an electric motor, which is where "armatures" are found. "Amateurs," OTOH, are non-professionals. And that is "nit picking grammar issues," not what you were referring to earlier.

 

. . . The EQ controls set at 12:00 "may" be fairly flat between 40~8Khz if your input is pink noise. Last time I checked however, bass guitars use pickups and are no where near having a flat responses and even the strings you choose have very different outputs depending on their size and material. . . .

 

. . . With the exception of acoustic guitar amps which are fairly flat and wide response, guitar amps are all over the place when it comes to response curves with cabs and heads. . . .

 

. . . Lastly, the goal here is you "don't" want these instruments to have flat responses. They were never intended to have flat responses even when they weren't electrified. . . .

Of course you don't want the instruments to have a flat response. The amps, OTOH, with the exception of electric guitar amps, are another story. I want my bass amp to reproduce what comes out of my bass. The contributing factors ought to be the pickups, strings, etc., not the amp. I'd want my acoustic amp, if I had one, to do the same. Fortunately, I have a bass amp which does the same thing and that's what we're talking about, not guitar amps. Sure, various makes of amps have their own "signature" tone but overall there's less variation between bass amps--at least good ones--than between guitar amps.

The original point--that you can mix and match heads and cabs and it won't do any harm--stands.

[WRGKMC]

No, I'm not. There's a difference between efficiency and sensitivity. You're talking about the former while describing the latter.

 

I think you should reread the original post because you're missing the main points I was making.

 

 

I'll give you a pass on electric guitar amps but it's well established that a bass or keyboard amp is a good substitiute for an acoustic guitar amp so we're pretty much talking flat.~~.

 

Its exactly the same with bass amps having different tone stacks and voicing's

 

 

I don't know why I'd want to take an opinion from an electric motor' date=' which is where "armatures" are found. "Amateurs," OTOH, are non-professionals. And [i']that[/i] is "nit picking grammar issues," not what you were referring to earlier.~~.

 

I don't understand what you're saying here. I simply gave you a scientific method of measuring both the cabs and heads responses. This method is used by most technicians and engineers in some form or fashion for testing both audio and radio gear. In audio you use an audio sine wave. In radio you use an RF generator for tuning coils and troubleshooting. This way you can test the gear under operating conditions and not guess what is occurring. This is one version of the tool most workbenches use http://www.tinaja.com/glib/siginj01.pdf

This is the methodology of troubleshooting. http://www.angelfire.com/planet/funw...TS_CHAP-4.html

 

My version is an expansion of this methodology to analyze what you will actually get from any head or speaker using "test tools" which rule out what you may think you know or think you hear.

 

 

 

Of course you don't want the instruments to have a flat response. The amps, OTOH, with the exception of electric guitar amps, are another story. I want my bass amp to reproduce what comes out of my bass. The contributing factors ought to be the pickups, strings, etc., not the amp. I'd want my acoustic amp, if I had one, to do the same. Fortunately, I have a bass amp which does the same thing and that's what we're talking about, not guitar amps. Sure, various makes of amps have their own "signature" tone but overall there's less variation between bass amps--at least good ones--than between guitar amps.

The original point--that you can mix and match heads and cabs and it won't do any harm--stands.

 

I didn't say anything about mixing and matching heads harming anything.

What I said if he wants Optimal results, and the best bang for the buck, he may not get that because he mentioned he cant get the store to test things out and is handicapped by guessing might work well.

 

Many Bass players ears can detect the smallest variations in tonal differences between bass amps, cabs and how the strings respond to the notes being produced for their particular instrument and playing style. I happen to be one of many who do. Your personal experience may be there's less variation between bass amps based on your experience

 

If you were to ask a full time professional, he'd likely give you some strange looks with a statement like "overall there's less variation between bass amps". As a Guitarist, you may think that because your ears are tuned to mid frequencies of the guitar. I'm sure you could also get many bass players to say

"overall there's less variation between Guitar amps" In reality you would both be wrong and right. Its all a matter of degree.

 

Someone with sensitive ears tuned to hearing a differences in tones should be able to hear a 1db increase or decrease in EQ variation. You do notice them in guitar amps because your ears are tuned to hearing notes at those frequencies and expect everyone else's ears to be exactly the same as yours.

 

Most ears are indeed most sensitive to the normal speaking voices between 1~4Khz because we learn to recognize those tones before we are even born. For someone with trained ears the differences in bass heads and cabs is like day and night to them. They spend all their time focused on those frequencies and hear the mildest changes that may go completely unnoticed by other musicians.

 

Your ears are tuned to hear the mid frequencies of a guitar, and small changes in midrange sound appear to be hugely different to you. If you were to connect those amps up to a frequency analyzer, you'd see how small a range in the frequency response those changes actually are. And if you eventually get into recording and do some mixing, you'd know exactly what I'm talking about here.

 

Bass amps actually use much larger changes in frequency amplitude, not only because the dynamic range is huge in the bass region, but because of the ears sensitivity is much lower and to get changes to lower frequencies you have to use broader filters.

 

I too played guitar before bass and had the attitude there wasn't much difference between amps. I did learn that's not the case when I actually started playing bass professionally full time. You cant help but check out what the competition is using and you do play many gigs through other peoples gear when you have several bands playing at gigs. You learn wattage is only part of a formula and that there are many other factors even more important in determining good tone.

 

Full Time bass players"do" choose amps based on tone as well as many other factors like name recognition, weight, cost, availability, preamp sensitivity, flexibility, features, color and dozens of other reasons. For me I could care less about half of those because I'm more into recording these days and my goals are first tone, second how the instrument feels getting those tones. I do go to extreme lengths to get those two items.

 

Again you might want to reread what I posted. I think you're either misinterpreting what I posted and reading things into it you want it to say or you just don't understand the logic in back of what was being posted.

[isaac42]

No, I'm not. There's a difference between efficiency and sensitivity. You're talking about the former while describing the latter.

 

 

I'll give you a pass on electric guitar amps but it's well established that a bass or keyboard amp is a good substitiute for an acoustic guitar amp so we're pretty much talking flat.

 

 

I don't know why I'd want to take an opinion from an electric motor, which is where "armatures" are found. "Amateurs," OTOH, are non-professionals. And that is "nit picking grammar issues," not what you were referring to earlier.

 

 

Of course you don't want the instruments to have a flat response. The amps, OTOH, with the exception of electric guitar amps, are another story. I want my bass amp to reproduce what comes out of my bass. The contributing factors ought to be the pickups, strings, etc., not the amp. I'd want my acoustic amp, if I had one, to do the same. Fortunately, I have a bass amp which does the same thing and that's what we're talking about, not guitar amps. Sure, various makes of amps have their own "signature" tone but overall there's less variation between bass amps--at least good ones--than between guitar amps.

The original point--that you can mix and match heads and cabs and it won't do any harm--stands.

 

I want my bass amp to reproduce what's coming out of my bass accurately, too, but a lot of bass players prefer a more colored sound, so bass amps and bass speakers are often not flat, and are deliberately designed to have a particular coloration.

[chunky-b]

tl;dr but...

[FormerlyBassred]

That looks like a fun ride ....

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can mix an match cabs and heads and all that - the db meter crowd is over-analyzing everything, unless you have cabs with different resistance ratings (ohms) - then you might notice a little difference.

 

I used to use a Crate compact single 15 cab with a G-K 2X10 cab (no ports or HF horn, was glorious combination) and that Hartke head - two 8-ohm cabs with relatively low power handling (compared to today's big boys, those cabs were like 200 watts rms...) I never used a meter on them, I just plugged in and dialed in amazingly big glorious bass tones, which is more important than anything else

 

My main question for the OP is this: Why the heck were you using an outboard comp when the one on the Hartke was pretty good?